Episode 118 Podcast Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Everyone’s always watching your behaviour. They’re not sitting there staring at words on a wall. They want to see what you do and they will naturally go there. That’s what leaders do. They lead and people follow.

Speaker 2 (00:15):

G’day everyone. Rob Kropp and Dan Stones here from Pravar Group and welcome back to another episode of The Trade Den. Good to have you back, Dan. Looking forward to today’s episode around lazy leadership.

Speaker 1 (00:26):

Yes. Anything to do with leadership, teams, all that sort of stuff. Absolutely love it. So really looking forward to it. Hi everyone. Let’s kick off today and start with the idea that lazy leadership, most lazy leaders don’t recognise themselves as being lazy. Let’s get that on the table to start with. What it sounds like and what it comes through as I’m trusting, I’m flexible, I’m hands off. I empower my team. And on the surface, all of that looks fine, but there’s patterns that when it’s actually lazy leadership, these patterns show up consistently and that’s what starts to break down your business over time. So the three patterns we’re going to cover off today is pattern number one, what we call helicopter leadership. Pattern number two, which is do what I say, not what I do. And pattern three is the path of least resistance. So those are the three we’re going to cover off.

(01:18):

And Rob, let’s start with that first one, helicopter leadership. And this isn’t about being everywhere all the time. It’s about when you show up. You do show up, but you show up at a very particular time.

Speaker 2 (01:29):

It’s like the parenting style of helicopter parenting. It’s the same thing. But this is the same analogy when it comes to leadership. You kind of hover all over everything, but you dip down and you mostly only dip down not when things are going great or you really want to pump up your team and show some leadership and pat them on the back. You mainly dip down when there’s mostly problems that arise. So that’s the problem of this lazy leadership style is that you’re only in there when problems exist.

Speaker 1 (02:03):

Yeah, you’re absent basically. You’re not there for the day-to-day. You’re not there for the effort. You’re there for the critique. You’re there for the judgement . The team’s out there trying to figure everything out. Something happens and the minute it starts to get shaky, something goes wrong. There you are, you swoop in and it’s like it’s time for me to sort it all out yet again. And it feels like leadership, but it’s not.

Speaker 2 (02:23):

Yeah. This is the problem, especially when a business owner’s starting to grow their business and build a team around them. They start to get that little bit of leverage. They start to get their little bit of their time back. And we see it a bit in coaching where sometimes they go to the two ends of the far the extreme where they somewhat take their foot off the pedal a little bit and their hours come down and they just get sloppy in their leadership. They’re not showing up with intent like they used to. And yeah, they’re still working hours, but they’re not being intentional with the hours as the leader that they know they should be.

Speaker 1 (03:00):

Yeah. And it becomes unbalanced. Like we said, you’re showing up at the, not the wrong time, you’re just not showing up at the times when you really need to as a great leader. And you end up doing some things that unintentionally create really big problems in the business. The first one I see, and we see this, we’ve got to coach guys through this, is that you train your team not to own the outcome. It’s somehow it’s always going to be whether you say it’s good enough or bad enough, whatever it is, but you’re always in the rescuing mode. And when you’re rescuing all the time, people just go, “Well, we know you’ll be there. We know you’ll come in and fix it. We just show up and do our best and whatever happens, happens.” That’s a really dangerous game to play, especially if you’re the one that should be leading the team.

Speaker 2 (03:40):

You become a bit of Mr. Fixit. And the team don’t think for themselves because they know Bob is going to just come in and save the day. And that’s probably why your phone’s blowing up all the time with phone calls because your team don’t think they don’t solve problems because they know that you’re going to swan in there and rescue the day and fix the problem and only be there when problems do exist.

Speaker 1 (04:04):

Yeah. And if you’re nodding your head as you listen to this, it’s more than just not thinking for themselves and you’re going, “Yeah, that’s my team. I’ve probably got some of this. ” It’s also like they wait. There’s a hesitance with everything. There’s a wait for direction. There’s no judgement being made. That idea of use your best judgement with your guys and having them do that is absent. There’s no judgement going on. It’s literally spoonfeed instruction in, action out, result comes. It’s very robotic in that sense. That’s what it feels like. And they don’t learn to make good calls by themselves.

Speaker 2 (04:37):

And what often happens is you know that by growing your business through good people and systems is what does set you free from the day-to-day. Exceptionally, that’s what it’s meant to happen. But what often happens is through this leadership style, this helicopter leadership style, you become a bit of a prisoner of your own business because even though you’ve got good people around you like awesome ground crew and you’ve got your good office crew around you, even though you’ve got people in your team around you, you can never really set yourself free from the day-to-day operations because there’s that level of dependency on you. You want to step away for a few days or a week or more, things just turn pear shaped because you do all the thinking, all the strategy, all the problem solving and all the heavy lifting because you are the Mr. Problem man that only swans in to fix the problems and shoots on out of there as they go.

Speaker 1 (05:32):

Yeah. It’s almost, this is the precursor. Helicopter leadership’s the precursor to what we covered in episode 113, which was the, could your business run without you for a month? If you’re a helicopter leading, the answer’s going to be no every time. Let’s go to pattern number two then. And this one’s a huge one and it’s another uncomfortable one because the realization’s really hard to pick up, but it’s do what I say, not what I do.

Speaker 2 (05:55):

This one’s a big one because a lot of leaders get to themselves into that position where they almost had that mindset that it’s, “Well, you should be doing this and you should be doing that. ” And there becomes this incongruency about what’s expected from the team versus what the leader’s willing to do from themselves. And that incongruency shows up in somewhat of a bit of a double standards. It’s like, “Well, I expect you to do this, but I’m not going to. ” And that’s a poor pattern of leadership and that’s lazy leadership in the end of the day because really what great leadership is not just leading by example where you’re the one trying to outwork everyone, but your leadership sets the tone, it sets the standards, it sets the expectations in terms of how you show up in any given day, any given week.

(06:46):

And that’s the tone that should filter down through the culture of the business going forward.

Speaker 1 (06:51):

And again, the examples for this one is things like punctuality is a big one. We see this all the time. You expect everyone to be bang on time, but you’re the one that rolls in late. You’re the one that’s really cruisy about your time because you’re the boss. And it’s like, well, I can do that, but you can’t. It’s a standard thing that people do relate to. Another one’s quality of work is another one and the idea of cutting corners under pressure. It’s like, do we go away from the things that have made us successful when we’re under pressure? That’s a huge one I think that you don’t pick up when it’s you, but if you really stop and think about it, you can pick it up if you do stop.

Speaker 2 (07:25):

Yeah. The big one for me is accountability. Like you expect performance and you expect your team to be accountable for what they’re meant to be doing, yet you fail to hold yourself accountable and do what you say you’re going to do. And that’s a big mantra that I’ve lived and breathed by as a leader is I do what I say I’m going to do. And that’s a high expectation that I’ve got for myself. Now, am I perfect with it every time? No, but it’s a standard that I hold true, but that’s what I expect for myself and it’s what I expect from my team and my clients and the people around me because I live and breathe it myself and I expect the same congruency around it. But what we’re talking about is the pattern is I expect you to do this, but I’m not willing to do that myself.

(08:13):

And that’s just lazy leadership at the end of the day.

Speaker 1 (08:16):

It is. It also looks like if you’ve got like, well, we’ve got it written everywhere. Everyone sees what our culture is. It’s on the walls. I’ve done it. I’ve been through it. We’ve done culture. We’ve done this idea of how we want people to act. People don’t read that. People are watching you as the leader. They’re watching your behaviour and that’s what you’re saying, that presence you bring, that intention behind it, that’s really, really important.

Speaker 2 (08:37):

Correct, because culture is not just bullshit written on the walls because you’ve done a little bit of a team meeting to be able to go, “Well, who are we and what do we stand for? ” That is not culture. The definition of culture is people like us do this around here. That’s what culture is in the end of the day. And as the leader, and I’ve probably said it a million times on this podcast, is that the fish rots from the head down. And what that means is that as the leader, you set the tone for everything around your organisation. And so your team are looking to you more than you probably realise. So you’ve got to live and breathe by how we do things around here and be the example and show up with intent and set the culture through your actions and what you say and what you do and then your team will follow you.

(09:31):

So you can’t live and breathe by this, I expect you to do it, but I’m not willing to. That is just shit leadership in the end of the day.

Speaker 1 (09:38):

Yeah. And your standards will be the standards that they live by. That’ll be where it goes. And it sounds like it’s a real management sort of theory and corporate way of being, but it’s how people work. And having worked with enough people and teams and ground crews and businesses over time, we see this repeat over and over and over again. So you’ve really got to take this one to heart and be honest and have real face the facts. If this is you, you’ve got to really make some decisions. All right. Part number three, this one is probably the one that is the most common and this is the path of least resistance. And it’s not the big shortcuts you take or that one time you let something slide. It’s all the little things that keep getting put off or pushed to the side or you turn a blind eye to the path of least resistance.

Speaker 2 (10:28):

Leadership is hard. Leadership is extremely hard. It takes courage. It takes confidence. You’ve got to be able to have certainty in times of uncertainty. These are the things that make a great leader, but leadership is scarce. Leadership is extremely scarce because there’s a lot of people who are in leadership positions who take the path of least resistance because they’re not willing to do what it takes to be a great leader in the end of the day.

Speaker 1 (11:03):

What examples have you got of that that you see? Give us some concrete, this is what it looks like if you are in this boat.

Speaker 2 (11:11):

It’s not having the conversations like the difficult conversations. And in a leadership position in business, you’ve got to be able to have the hard conversation, whether it’s a standard that’s not being met in terms of quality. It might be an underperforming employee that you’re just turning a blind eye to because you don’t want to have to have the conversation. It could be a safety issue that you’re just letting slide hoping that no one gets hurt. It’s a difficult customer that you don’t want to have to deal with. These are the things that generally shows up in the avoidance of a difficult conversation because you feel, as a leader, uncomfortable having to have that conversation. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:59):

I think there’s also an element, it is that absolutely the hard things. It’s also the easy things that don’t get done. My example would be when I used to be a GM of a company, we ran warehouses and they were big warehouses. And if I saw rubbish on the floor, I’d always pick it up. I’d always be like, “I’ll go and get it. I never asked anyone else to do. ” But it was that little thing about pick up what you see and put that in the bin and do it from that perspective of that’s just what we do around here. And it was amazing, you go to another state and you’d be in another warehouse where you have been for a while and it was messy. You guarantee that there’s no one doing it. So therefore it’s one of those things that path of least resistance, either not my job, don’t want to do it, I didn’t see it, I’ve got other things to do.

(12:41):

All those little things add up as well. So I think it comes on both sides of the spectrum, that path of least resistance. It’s not always the big hard stuff. It’s also the little easy stuff. Not doing either is going to land you in this boat.

Speaker 2 (12:53):

It is. And I think that as we talk through this, it’s not that a lot of business owners aren’t working hard or long hours. That’s not what this is about because there’s a lot of business owners that we speak to. It’s common to be working 50, 60, 70, 80 hours a week. This lazy leadership topic isn’t about the amount of hours that you’re working, it’s your leadership style and approach. And you can still be in a leadership position, have a good team around you and be a lazy leader because you’ve abdicated your responsibility of what it actually takes to lead. And I think a lot of business owners underestimate the leadership required to run a great business. They just miss that mark every day, don’t they?

Speaker 1 (13:37):

Yeah, they do. And again, it’s the awareness of it and then it’s the willingness to do something about it. Because as leaders, there’s always that idea of you’re always watching, but what are you actually doing? And I think if there’s anything we can … We’ll recap in a moment, but if there’s anything we can tie into this whole thing, it’s your behaviour. And that idea, and you’ve spoken about on the podcast before, that your presence matters, never underestimate the power of your presence.

Speaker 2 (14:00):

That’s something that stuck with me for a long time. And it’s actually a business partner, Gav Houston, who said that to me when he first started many, many years ago, he’s like, “Rob, never underestimate the power of your presence when you’re in front of clients.” And people look up to you whether you like it or not. And he went on to talk a bit about when he was a CEO in a very large mining contracting business that people would kind of shy away from him as they walked away from him in the hallways was just like, “Oh, there’s Gav Houston, the CEO kind of thing.” To him, he’s just like, “I’m just Gav,” but to a lot of people, he was the CEO kind of thing. So it’s one of those things that we can’t take our roles for granted. We can’t take our presence for granted because there’s more power in our presence than we probably like to give ourselves credit for.

(14:57):

And it’s so important in leadership, you’ve got to understand that we do have a presence about us and we’ve got to show up in the right way because people are looking at you whether you like it or not.

Speaker 1 (15:07):

Yeah, well said. Well said. Let’s recap these patterns quickly and then we’ll move into our next little thing we’re going to talk about. But the three patterns of lazy leadership for you, pattern one is helicopter leadership. That’s absent day-to-day swoop into fix rather than lead. Fixing isn’t leading. Rescuing isn’t leading. Pattern number two, do what I say, not what I do, and that’s holding your team to a standard that you don’t model yourself. You don’t do what you say you’re going to do. What you’re talking about isn’t what you do. And there’s an incongruence that Rob was talking about before and pattern number three, the path of least resistance, which we just covered, which is avoiding the hard conversations usually that leadership actually requires or just walking past the simple stuff that everyone can see and you don’t do anything about it, neither will anyone else.

(15:52):

Let’s get into then, well, how do we start to turn the corner and lead with intention? And like you said, Rob, so well, I think the fix isn’t more hours. It’s not working harder. It’s the deliberate awareness of how you’re showing up. I think that’s what it is and being more deliberate in the hours you have. So for me, that starts with, I suppose the concept is being connected, staying connected to the business.

Speaker 2 (16:14):

This is very relevant when as you’re starting to phase yourself off the tools and into the office. When you’re on the tools running on job sites, you’re there, you’re connected every single day because you’re connected with your team, you see what’s going on, you’re connecting with your customers because you’re connecting with all the subtrades. You are kind of the leading hand running the day-to-day side of things at the job, but the moment you take a step up and build your ground crew and leverage yourself offsite and start to bring in an office crew, you start to definitely feel that little bit of disconnection around what’s going on. So you’ve got to somewhat not overcompensate that, but you’ve got to build in rituals and patterns and habits where you put yourself into those positions to have presence with your office crew, have presence with your job sites, put yourself in a situation where you have your show presence with your customers and other stakeholders.

(17:07):

It’s really going from being the guy on the job site to managing the job site and managing relationships by showing up through good meetings and good conversations.

Speaker 1 (17:19):

Yeah. It’s the rhythm that you’ve got. It’s a rhythm that’s there, not a drop in when everything breaks or when something happens. You’re always there. It’s a rhythm that keeps you informed. And I think it’s as simple as maybe even just doing it and it’s an important concept actually, a check versus a checkup. When you check up, it’s like when I can be bothered when I show up, usually when I’m concerned, that’s a checkup. A check in is I’m going to walk around. I’m going to spend 15 minutes checking in. It might just be a phone call. How are you doing? Nothing behind it in terms of what needs to be fixed, what’s not going right. It’s just literally checking in to keep you in the loop and not micromanaging.

Speaker 2 (17:55):

Yeah. How often do we see it where a guy gets off the tools and plunks themselves in the office and then it’s like, mate, when was the last time you went and checked in on your guys on site and had a look at the job? Oh, a month? It’s like, mate, you’re a project manager. Project managers need to be on the job sites looking at quality, looking at the schedule, looking at safety, having conversations, training the team. That’s your job, mate. What are you doing? So there’s building in those times in your week to be able to check in on your team and see how they’re going and show face. There’s so much power and showing face in being present.

Speaker 1 (18:29):

Yeah. And it’s also then not just about people either. Leadership is about, can I create the space for people to thrive in? So checking in on people’s environments, how are they working? Thinking beyond just what’s happening with your people, but thinking about, well, how are we setting up this place to give them a space that I lead that allows them to thrive in what they do? So then we talk about the next thing is leading by example. And this is a huge one. Everyone says, “Well, what’s leadership?” Well, it’s the example you set every day. And this is a simple thing, but it’s one of those hard simples, I think. It requires consistency and discipline and its standards and all those sort of things. But if I said what you tolerate you get and what you show up as, like we talked about before, how you show up is how they show up.

(19:18):

What do you think are some of the things that we can do in that sense of what’s a good example to set that day-to-day thing that you can do? What would be some of the big ones you see when someone’s really working on their leadership to show up or raise their level of presence?

Speaker 2 (19:33):

It’s the ability, like we discussed before, culture is people like us do this around here. That’s what culture is. It’s not riding on the wall, it’s an invisible feeling. So it’s the ability to know what those standards are and then model that behaviour. That’s what it is. That’s what we mean here by leading by example is modelling the behaviour that you expect. That means showing up on time. It means making meetings count. It’s not cancelling meetings. It’s not cutting quarters. It’s having the way that you communicate, the way that you respond via email, the conversations you have around the place. It’s about defining what is the standards and is the expectations and the behaviour that we expect around here, then modelling that and lead through your actions. Let your feet do the talking, not your voice do the talking in the end of the day.

Speaker 1 (20:37):

Yeah, I love that. It leads really well into our challenge for this week. And I think if you’re looking to identify those things, we just gave you some examples, but the thing that’s missing and when you think about your team, your environment, your culture, whatever it is, and we need more of this, it starts with you. And it requires you to step back in. It requires you to show up. So this week’s challenge is really about figure out what’s missing. Where are the frustration points that you’ve got? And then go, well, how do I lead through this? How do I step back in? Whether it’s a conversation, whether it’s an expectation that needs to be set, it’s something that you need to rebuild or a standard you need to reset. It could be as simple as going around and starting to pick up rubbish, whatever it is.

(21:19):

Do something where you show up and can be seen as showing up with intention.That’s a really good starting point because just that one thing, as you said before, Rob, everyone’s always watching your behaviour. They’re not sitting there staring at words on a wall. They want to see what you do and they will naturally go there. That’s what leaders do. They lead and people follow, but that’s the starting point. That’s this week’s challenge.

Speaker 2 (21:42):

It is. If you’ve got a team and things keep going sideways, jobs not finishing right, standard slipping, people making calls you’d never make, it’s worth asking whether the gap is leadership, not capability. So what I’d invite you to do is jump across to strategysession.com.au and book in for a free discovery call and we’ll help you identify where the breakdowns are happening and put a plan together to be able to fix them, not by just working more hours but with you showing up with better leadership on a day-to-day basis because in the end of the day, a business that only runs when you’re watching it isn’t a business. It’s a job and you deserve better than that. Hopefully you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, a Leadership Matters episode and looking forward to coming back to you with another episode here on The Trade Den again shortly. Until then, take care.

Speaker 1 (22:38):

See you soon.