Episode 121 Podcast Transcript
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Every step along the way, there’s an identity change, a structural change, and a strategic focus that needs to happen. And that’s the secret to being able to build a sustainable, scalable, profitable trades business that endures the test of time. G’day everyone. Rob Kropp and Dan Stones here from Pravar Group, and welcome back to another episode of The Trade Den. Good to have you back, Dan. How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Good to be back, Rob. Yeah, I’m really well. I’m looking forward to bringing home this journey that we’ve been on. Every time we come back to this, it’s great. We get excited. We love this. So today, phase three, looking forward to it. Let’s start at the beginning, all right? You said in the intro, everything starts with a dead spot. So let’s start about this. When you hit two million bucks, at two million bucks, something interesting happens. And it’s the first time in the journey probably where the business feels like it’s actually working. It’s where the team’s delivering revenue’s consistent. The pipeline looks good. That chaos of phase one, I’ve got to find work to do. There’s things that are going to happen. That’s a distant memory. The hamster wheel, you’ve taken off some hats, you’ve slowed down enough and all of a sudden you can breathe.
(01:16):
And no sooner do you take that breath, stability, bit of success, bit of I like this. That’s where you get hit with another change. It hits you like that. And at that point, you reach the next dead spot. You reach that next pinch point. And at some point some people stop here and it’s not because they give up. They stop in that owner-operator business because it’s comfortable enough. The business runs well, the income’s good. Pulling it apart and going on that next journey is not something they want to do. So people do stay owner-operator. Before we kick into phase three, owner-operator is not a place where you have to move out of. There is a sweet spot there. So I think where we started, and we’ve started this in every episode, Rob, is the idea of it’s done by choice. And there’s nothing wrong with the choice you make.
(02:03):
It’s more that you do make a choice though. That’s what’s really important.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
There is. And again, there’s the fork in the road. One fork you could go down is optimise the owner-operator business. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Like you said, it’s okay to stay there. Well, the other one is build a lifestyle business. But you’ve got to be called to do that. You’ve got to be called to want to step up and play a bigger game because like we’ve spoken around in the last two parts of this series is that when you do choose to step up and play a bigger game, you are choosing to step out of a sweet spot into an ugly zone, a dead spot. And that dead spot we call the nightmare zone. We’re going to talk about that today. And it is really a nightmare zone. So you’ve got to be willing, you’ve got to be ready. You’ve personally got to be ready, but the business has to be ready to punch through this dead spot because it is hard.
(02:59):
But just know that when you get on the other side, life is great. And this is where, like you said, it becomes worthwhile, isn’t it? Like this lifestyle business. That’s why we strategically call it that because it is a genuine lifestyle business where you’re not just working for wages anymore. This is now profits and lifestyle and wealth creation outside of the business. This is a different game now, isn’t it?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, it’s a going concern. You’ve got an asset, a business that has a life of its own. The team, like we said, there’s a stability to it that it can stand on its own two feet. And that’s where we get to at the end of this. But before we do, we’ve got to really talk about it. I want to come back to that. I’m not going to gloss over the dead spot of the nightmare zone because it’s real. And I think what happens to people is if you get sucked through the dead spot into the dead spot of phase two, it feels like, well, I had a stable business. Now it’s not stable. I had something that was going really well. Now it’s just not working as well. I’ve got almost speed wobbles. If you think about going, I remember going down to skateboard on a hill as a kid and you’d go too fast and it’d start to wobble.
(04:00):
And it’s a bit like that when you go from phase two to phase three, but it’s real and it’s a proper dead spot that you’ve entered into. It’s the nightmare zone. It’s another phase of business. It’s not just symptoms of things getting, “Oh, it’s a bit big. It’s a bit tricky. Oh, we’re a bit busy.” It’s a dead spot. And recognising what that dead spot is, I think this is probably the most important dead spot to understand because the nightmare is real. If you don’t get out of it, you will live in a nightmare that you think, “What is this all for? ” And a lot of guys we’ve seen in the past or guys that don’t go on with it almost blow themselves up at that point and just go back to the beginning.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Correct. Because the reason why we call it the nightmare is because you’ve got to punch to another level and there’s a dead spot between about two and three million dollars. And the reason why, if we thought about last time, it was about one to one and a half. This time it’s two to 2.5 to three. It’s about a million dollars. And the reason why it’s a million dollars because in this point here, you are dropping in overhead to be able to structurally set up your business to become a lifestyle business. And you genuinely need that million dollars in revenue to make the margin to pay for the overhead, which is bigger premises, more trucks on the road, project manager, a bit more admin support, maybe some estimation support, like you are literally now dropping in an operational team to be able to deliver on a lifestyle business.
(05:33):
And it’s important that you don’t work on these strategies in an owner-operator business because the business doesn’t have the revenue to support this infrastructure that you’re building in through people and systems. But in this phase, it’s bloody, ugly, and you’ve got to have the sales and pipeline behind you to punch through it to be able to be able to pay for this overhead that you’re introducing into your organisation.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah. Well said. And I think that’s it. You’re almost putting more hats back on when you do this and you go through it. You’ve got to put on that sales hat now and really wear it. You’ve still got the management hat because you haven’t got the leadership and you can’t quite afford the leadership. So you’ve still got to do all of those things, but make no mistake, you have to have the runway. Every cent you get is going to go towards making the margin to be able to bring in what we call the structure, which we’ll talk about in a moment. But all of that is tied in together. The other thing I think, Rob, that comes in and how it feels like when you’re in the nightmare zone is that you can’t step away. It’s almost like it’s a thriller. It’s a tension. There’s a real, if I step away from this, I need to give it all I’ve got again.
(06:45):
And it feels a little bit like hamster wheel, but it’s very different in terms of what it’s demanding from you. It’s not demanding your capacity, it’s demanding your leadership and your strength again as a leader and that step you need to take through it.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Correct. So you think about someone back when you’re stepping off the tools and into the office, the struggles that you go through is being able to build the ground crew around you and run operations while you are phasing off the tools. We’re seeing this at the moment, for example, with Nick, he’s one of our guys in our foundational programme and he’s right on the $2 million mark and he’s made the choice to, he wants to go and build a lifestyle business. But at $2 million, you’ve now, again, you’re too big to be small, you’re too small to be big. Still again, it’s just a different size. But at this point now, you’re one person managing a bigger team in the ground crew to deliver. You’ve not only got to win it as you’re the person winning it, you’ve got to manage an office crew, but you’ve got to manage a ground crew as a PM at the same time whilst then going on that journey to build the structure, to start offloading the project management.
(07:56):
So you’re in this really ugly zone where cash is tied again as it is, because you’re growing, that demands more cash flow, but you’re managing the work, winning the work, managing the people, and all of a sudden you’ve got to bring in management. So you kind of got to do it all together, don’t you?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah. And this is where all three things, the big three we talk about, have to be in sync because the minute you’re at a step here, you’re trip over.
(08:22):
And people think this, and I think this is the first trap people fall into, Rob, is the idea of structure. I just need more people. If I’ve got a leader and if I’ve got an estimator, if I put this person on, that would solve all my problems. And then I could go and do this. But they don’t understand the impact of that on the revenue scale that you said. And heaven forbid, if they try and do that and just throw people at it without having shifted identity. So let’s break down the big three as it applies to this phase and start with, as we always do, identity is the starting point of this. So what’s the identity shift and how does identity work when you’re in the nightmare zone and trying to get through that?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
The shift is going from a manager to a leader. And the big skillset you’ve got to learn now is leadership capability because when you’re on the tools, you were the doer. When you became the project manager, you became the manager. Now as you hire a project manager in this phase, you’ve got to lead the manager who manages the doers and that’s what the journey, doer, manager, leader, you over time move through those phases, but now it’s leadership to leadership to lead the manager, manager leads the doers. And so you become one removed. You’ve got to now manage one person who manages your 10 to 15 people and there’s a big difference between you managing the 10 to 15 when it’s you owning the business to leading an employee who manages those 10 to 15. There’s a different level of intensity and attention to detail. So it’s huge identity shift to now become the leader that you know deep down you are destined to be.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah. And it’s tricky because again, you’re not good at it. It’s something that you haven’t had a lot of time with and that there’s two things that I see when people try and make this shift. One is you’re no longer the jet.You’re not there to be the guru. You’re not there to save everyone. You’re not there to rescue everyone. You’re now not even the best at doing the job in the business. And in fact, you shouldn’t be because you’ve got people who are experts in their role that you’ve got. The second thing I think is the idea of how do I quantify leadership? Is it really helping? Surely I’m better off just pitching in and helping someone get a job done. Or surely I’m better off just doing something that matters like going off and making phone calls or doing something like that. So I think there’s that idea of letting go is a huge thing.
(10:49):
You think it was hard to let go of being a tradie going into business owner and manager. Now try going from being a manager into a true leader. That’s an even bigger identity shift in terms of what you’re letting go of and what you need to become.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
It’s the invisible, isn’t it? It is. It’s all the soft skills around delegation, accountability, empowering, trusting, relinquishing control. It’s the whole leadership. It’s hard. It’s hard because you’ve got to lead people and you’ve got to give them rope to let them run their own race. And leadership is, it’s a hard game, isn’t it?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
It really is. And I’ve seen you do this and I’ve seen you wrestle with it. I’ve seen you do it well and everything in between. It’s never straightforward, but it’s a tough thing. And I’ve seen you wrestle with the letting go and that identity and you think about it, what you were really good at, you don’t even do anymore. There’s other things you become good at. There’s something else you’ve got to invest in. It’s a million miles away from when you started what you thought you’d be doing.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And this is why in coaching we say you can’t fast track this. And because again, to be able to go from one to two issues to build owner operator business takes 12 to 24 months in rough terms, to build a true lifestyle business to get to that three to six million dollar mark roughly, it genuinely takes three to five years. And not only do you need that time to get there from a working capital, a cash flow, a growth point of view, you’ve got to win the work, you got to build a team, like all the strategy stuff we’ll talk about in a minute, but you genuinely need that time behind you to allow the identity shift and the soft skills to develop, to lead a business at this scale. Let’s not forget here, three to six million is a big business in the trade space and clients flaws them when I say that if you run a business more than $2 million, you’re in the single digit percentages of businesses in Australia and they go, “Well, I don’t feel like a 5%.” It’s like, “Mate, you are.” And so don’t underestimate the time required to develop the skills and have the identity shift to operate at this level. If you don’t do it right or you try and fast track it, at some point it’ll come crashing down.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah. Or if you try to do it without making the identity shift, I think that’s the other one. You’ve got to be willing to do that. If you’re not, don’t even try because you will get tripped up every time. The second thing then, let’s talk structure for a bit. Remember our big three, the second thing is structure. In phase one, we talked about more ground crew. In phase two, it started to become your admin, your support, your office crew. What’s phase three all about? Is it just more of that or is it something different?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
It’s a bit of both. It’s about unlocking at the operational level at the project management and the estimation level. You’ve got to unlock that and bring in that overhead into the business that unlocks to get to three to six. So generally between two and $3 million, you’ve got to inject overhead into your business in those non-billable people, but then you’ve got to remember to be able to then deliver on that revenue, you’ve got a high ground crew. So this is why you’ve got to be so smart through this phase because you’ve got to think if you’re dropping in $150,000 person as an overhead, you’ve generally got to do three to $500,000 in revenue just to be able to break even on that person, but then you need a couple of people in the field to be able to deliver that work. So if you times that by two to get an estimator on, there’s a million bucks in revenue, generally 800 to a million just to break even on two overheads, you’ve got to put whole crews of people on to deliver that work and fund it and pay for it and deliver it.
(14:39):
So it’s a hard grind because you’re bringing in management and you’ve got to bring in ground crew at the same time to pay for that management. And that’s why it’s called the Nightmare Zone.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah. And I love the way you describe it. I’ve heard you do it so many times, but the idea of you’ve got to know your overhead, you’ve got to know your breakeven, you’ve got to know your margin. I think this is the other big part of this is financially you’ve got to understand the language of business. This is where you’ve got to do some hard work. And for some guys, they’ve never done this piece to that level because you can’t make an informed decision unless you do know your numbers at this level. This now becomes a non-negotiable. The size of turnover alone, a 1% shift is, it’s meaningful at this. It’s not just one job, I will make it up on the next one.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, this is our GM in coaching because I know that when I started Pravar, my background was in accounting and HR. So people and numbers and when you cross the threshold at an owner-operator business of $2 million, there’s two skill sets you’ve got to develop. It’s your financial acumen and your leadership capability. It’s no longer about being a great tradie. It’s no longer about your ability to be, as you said, a jet on site. You’ve actually got to be the worst on site so you stop the temptation being there, but now you’ve got to be a gun at understanding your numbers and having information to make decisions because you’re no longer the guy driving productivity and profitability on job sites by being there in person. You’ve got to do it through a person and they drive productivity through the people. So knowing your numbers and having clear visibility around them is so important at this level and this is where businesses grow broke because they don’t have the financial acumen to succeed at this level.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah. And I think that idea about how do you put the structure in the right way? You’re now not looking for increased capacity but increased capability. You want people that can make decisions without you being there, without you having to make every decision. And that’s tricky as well, but your structure is what lends you to do that. So all of the imperatives to have structure, you have to have these people in your structure, but you’ve got to be able to pay for them. You’ve got to be able to understand what the right time to do that is. So it all starts to intertwine and it’s just a whole nother level of the game that we play. And then out of that, once you get that structure in place, you’ve made the identity shift, then it becomes time to play strategy. And we’ve talked strategy in terms of phase one was foundations.
(17:03):
Phase two is all about just getting some people in and building a team around you. But phase three, it’s all of it. It’s the whole business is the strategic focus and you’ve got so many more things you’ve got to be across because the businesses is now starting to get to that point where you’re definitely too big to be small, but the risks are real.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, this is real nitty-gritty business strategy now. This is having a strong position in the marketplace and having a strong presence. It’s really optimising your marketing machine. It’s about dialling in your sales engine. It’s about building out the right structure and learning how to recruit and onboard and train people. It’s the ability to upgrade your leadership and your leadership cadence in terms of the way you manage people. It’s your financial acumen skills, it’s margin management, it’s cashflow management, it’s risk mitigation. I think about our lifestyle coaching framework that we coach our clients to. It’s huge and it has to be because when you’re running a business of this size, it’s no longer about foundations or structure. It is now business strategy and you can’t just do it to tick a box. There is so much you’ve got to work on over a period of time to build a very robust, sustainable, scalable lifestyle business.
(18:29):
It requires everything and this is where you start to get excited about business again because you get to work on the fun stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah. And I think the other challenge of that nightmare zone then is the business as you’re in that nightmare zone pushing through it, it doesn’t work for you at that sense. And what I mean by that is you still need to get to that point where the business works for you. It’s hard. It’s not a reward. This lifestyle element, let’s just be clear on that before we turn into the sweet spot. It’s not about you getting to a point where you can live a great life, have fun and just take time off and not be there because you’ve got a team in place. Yes, you get some of those rewards, but the business still has to work and it requires your leadership. You don’t just get to abdicate your responsibility and go, “All right, I’m off. I’ve done my bit. I’m off to live my best life.” It will just die in the ass if you do that and you’ll stay in the nightmare zone, you’ll just keep repeating it.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah. Some clients take us literally where it’s like, “Okay, I’m running a lifestyle business. Oh, we’ll have a great lifestyle.” Yes, you’ve got to enjoy that, but you don’t leverage yourself out of the business. And I hate the bullshit marketing spin in the marketplace where it’s like, set yourself free from the business. It’s like, no mate, you can’t do that. Yes, you might be able to set yourself free from the day-to-day operations of the business, but at this level of business, you are still working a 40 to 45 hour week leading, managing, driving this business forward. It requires your presence so you don’t leverage yourself out of your business, you leverage yourself into leadership and that requires time, presence, showing face and really leading this business forward. It requires you to show up as a great leader, not be an absent leader like you were talking about before.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And it’s a really tricky … What you’re describing is the decision point. We talk about this in the other two episodes. This is the decision point. I think you’ve just outlined beautifully why it’s such a tricky decision because on one hand, everyone wants the outcome. I want a lifestyle business. Yeah, it sounds great, but that’s not the decision you’re making. The decision really is, can I step away and be redundant from day to day, like you said, but can I still be president and show up as a different version of me as a leader and at a higher level, a higher standard than anything that’s ever been demanded of me before? Those are the two in my mind when we go, “Are you ready to do a lifestyle business?” That’s your decision. Are you willing to do that? Become almost worthless in one regard and almost indispensable in the other, but in completely opposite ways you’ve ever been done before.
(20:57):
And that’s a tough decision.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
It is. You want the heat from the fire, but you’re not willing to do the work. And so in this instance, you have to put the work in. You got to work hard because at this level, you’re in the percentages of the sizes of businesses. One percenters do not get 1% of results working part-time. You’ve got to work hard. Now I’m not saying you can’t take time off and enjoy the fruit. We’ll get to the definition in a minute, but you think of any elite football player, they still work hard and same in things business. And business is not just something you enjoy the fruits of your labour from. You’ve actually got to lead this business going forward as a lifestyle business still.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah. And it is a long journey. Like we said, this is a long game and it’s something you got to continually work on. But it’s a quiet as you start to emerge out into the sweet spot, it’s a quiet emergence. You notice it, you know it 100%, but it’s not like it’s all of a sudden, like we said, it’s not like I’m loaded, I’m sitting on the beach drinking champagne every day. It’s not that emergence out of the nightmare zone. It’s more like, I don’t need to check my phone all the time. This business can operate without me. In fact, it does better with me when I’m gone. That’s when you know you’re in the sweet spot, but make no mistake, you walk away from it, you leave. It’s very rare that that lifestyle business you’ve created is going to thrive.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, correct.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
All right. Well, let’s talk about that sweet spot. Let’s talk about then what you see and how we define it at Pravar. Again, we’ve talked before about our programmes and how our programmes are geared to give outcomes. And this is no mistake.This is another phase that as you say, it’s our jam. This is one of the zones we love to work in.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Our definitions of a lifestyle business is generally three to $6 million in revenue, 10 to 15% net profit after you’ve paid yourself. And the reason why it sits at around 10 to 15 is because that’s a sustainable number, but that covers all the overheads of running your business and having a full operational team in around you. You can generally do that in 45 hours a week or less and you generally can do it and have four to six weeks leave per year that’s not hinging on a Christmas shutdown period when most tradings take their time off. From a team point of view, you’ve got a full operational structure around you and you’re in a leadership position and that’s still a full-time gig. From a health point of view, you’re generally happier and healthier than ever before. You’re connected with your wife and kids because you’ve got the time to be able to spend with them and be present as a husband and a father.
(23:26):
And from a lifestyle point of view, you’ve got your life integrated because you’ve got a business that’s strong and sustainable and stable. You’ve got stability at home, you’ve got strength at home, you’re in a great leadership position, but you’ve then got profit to start your wealth creation journey outside of the business. So really to this point, you’ve probably spent a lot of time building wealth inside of your business by reinvesting. But now this is the fun part because you’ve got a great asset in your organisation, but then you start investing out of it. So it’s a really great spot to be in and it’s a fun part of business. It’s still got its challenges, but this is the sweetest spot you’ll ever get to in business.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Definitely. And I think this is why no matter where you’re at, these phases, yes, you’ve got to sort of go, am I in this one or this one or this one? But I think everyone that we talk to would agree that this is what I want. When you started your business, whether in phase one, whether you’re in phase two, whether you’re in a sweet spot, a dead spot, this is the outcome of why you do it all if this is where you’re headed and you feel like these journeys make sense. And the danger is that you think that there’s some grinding way to do this. There’s some way that you can be the person you are. If you’re in phase one thinking, “Yeah, that sounds amazing. I can’t wait till I get there.” I’m sorry, but that person you are right now, the one listening to this isn’t going to be the person that stands in there with a lifestyle business.
(24:51):
You will be fundamentally different. You have to be because your identity shifts. The business you’ve got now, even the people that are in it that are helping you move through your phases are going to be completely different. There’s not one part of your business when you’re in phase one that’s probably going to look the same other than you. But even then, what are we in, Rob? Three, five years, you’re going to look different, feel different anyway, like you said.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
It’s all going to change. Everything’s going to change. The business will not be the same at this level as it was when it was smaller. It’s fundamentally going to change and that’s a good thing.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, in a good way. It’s exciting. It’s not you get out of having, and I’ve heard you say this before, the ABN, what is it? A job wrapped in an ABN or whatever you’d call it about. But it’s that idea. It’s not a job anymore. It’s not a babysitting gig. It’s none of that. It’s a business and you’re passionate about this game that we call business and what comes with it.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yes. We’ve got to remember that every phase that you can go through has its pros and cons. Toolbelt business has got its pros and cons. An owner operated business has its pros and cons. A lifestyle business has its pros and cons. And it’s also important to remember that just because the bigger you get that all my challenges go away. That’s not true. The challenges are at every level as well. The thing you’ve just got to decide is what level do you want to play this game at? It’s a choice. You got to choose though. You have to consciously make the decision to be able to go, “That’s what I want. ” And not be influenced. You can be inspired by others, but don’t be influenced around what they say you should do. Because how many times have we seen it, mate, going, “That guy should not be running that size business.” Because he’s not willing to go on the journey to develop the identity, develop the mindset and the skillset to get there.
(26:39):
He says he wants it, but he’s not willing to go on that journey. And until he changes something, it’s not going to happen for him. So you got to make a decision, you got to make a choice and you got to back it up with an evolved person to be able to get there. Otherwise, you’re constantly going to be living in a state of frustration because you will never get there in the end of the day, no matter how hard you push.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah. And I think from my perspective, as we’ve talked through this sort of series, I think it’s the idea is the decision for what you want and deciding what you want’s one thing, but it’s so much deeper than that when it comes to this. And hopefully we’ve made a good case for all of the decision points that you’ve got to make along the way. But ultimately what you want when you’re deciding what you want is never enough. It’s not like, I hate to tell you, but the secret doesn’t work. You don’t just go, “I want this, close your eyes, open them and the whole world changes.” There’s work to be done. The decision’s more about the price you’re willing to pay. Are you willing to be the person capable of having this business? That’s a decision. Not, am I the sort of person who wants a three to six million dollar business and four weeks off a year or whatever it is?
(27:43):
That’s an easy decision. It’s like, that sounds great, but there’s so much depth and so much consideration that should go into making these calls. And when you make that, then the investment becomes worthwhile. And that’s where going on the journey itself is something that you enjoy and something you’re willing to double down on, not just tick boxes to say, “Yeah, I should be here and where’s my reward? Where’s my prize?” It doesn’t work that way.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, so true. What a great series.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Been fun, hasn’t it?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
It has. And hopefully it’s given you a bit of an insight into how we work here at Pravar because this is what makes us unique. This is what enables the results for our clients. It’s not a one size fits all. Clients come to us where they’re like, “I want more. I want to be better. I want to grow this business and I want to build my business and reconnect with my family and I can see that there’s a better way.” And we take them on that journey. We take them on the journey to an owner-operator business. We take them on that journey to a lifestyle business and then beyond. And so it’s a journey that we take clients on and every step along the way there’s an identity change, a structural change and a strategic focus that needs to happen. And that’s the secret to being able to build a sustainable, scalable, profitable trades business that endures the test of time. So hopefully you’ve enjoyed this series. If this has really resonated with you around the last couple of episodes we’ve done in this series and this excites you to want to go on this journey to build something that you know deep down you’re capable of building, then jump across to strategysession.com.au, fill out the application form, book in a time that suits and let’s have a great chat around where you’re at, where you’re trying to go and let’s build a good, strong, long-term partnership together to be able to help you achieve what you want to be able to achieve with coaching with Pravar. Hope you’ve enjoyed the series and looking forward to coming back to you with another episode of The Trade Den very shortly. Until then, take care.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
See you soon.