Episode 127 Podcast Transcript
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Are you ready to actually step off the tools and start running this business correctly? Because if you’re not, then we can’t help you. You’ve got to be in that position where you’ve made the actual decision where it’s time to get one leg off either side of the fence and actually step into being a business owner rather than a tradie trying to do both things. G’day everyone. Rob Kropp and Dan Stones here from Pravar Group, and welcome back to another episode of The Trade Den. Good to have you back, Dan. How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I’m very well, thank you. Things are getting a little bit colder where we are at the moment at this time of the year, but anyway, we’re going well. Looking forward to today and talking about this idea, I love it when we start getting into the real meaty stuff like identity and things like that. Some of the stuff you just said in the intro as you’re recording and I was listening, I really liked that idea of a business doesn’t grow because you’re good on the tools. It grows when you stop needing to be. And we get it. You’re fast, you’re skilled, you take pride in your work. At some point, staying on the tools was like the right move, the safe move because you knew things would get done right, that you wouldn’t be losing money where you didn’t need to, all that sort of stuff.
(01:12):
And all of that’s got to where you are, but at some point you have to accept that what got you to a million dollars is exactly the same thing that’s going to keep you from getting to two. And that’s the sort of thing I love when we get into that. So let’s start off really calling a spade a spade, Rob, today. The four real reasons why people are stuck on the tools. I’m going to throw some words at you and I want you to talk to each of these because they’re real, they matter and we’ve got to get to a point where we can acknowledge what they are in terms of if you’re listening, what’s holding you back? So the first word I want to talk about is trust.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
This one’s a big one when it comes to team and it’s not that you don’t trust someone. It’s this as a person in the business context, you don’t trust the team that their either work ethic or their level of execution or finish is going to be to the standards that you operate as a business owner. So it’s not trust in a person to person. Do you trust them as an individual? It’s more around productivity and performance and level of execution, isn’t it?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, it really is. That standard, like you said, that word standard. But again, we’ve talked about this in previous episodes where when you give people a chance to do the job they love and do it well, you’ll find that their standards can sometimes even exceed your own. But if you’re not willing to trust to that level, you’re always going to struggle to get away from being on the tools all the time.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And I get it because you obviously started your business because you’re very good at what you do and you probably had that mindset where it’s like, I can be better than my boss at that. Or you wanted to do high quality work and great workmanship and be a master of your craft and no one’s ever going to treat your business or your craft in your business like you do as the owner. But I remember that there’s that thing that Gary Vaynerchuck or Gary V said many times ago, you’re better off having six people to do it that 80% is good as you than you doing it 100% as good as you. And that really struck with me. And I know that when I first started putting team on, I had that mindset going, well, no one can coach like Rob does. And it’s right, no one can coach like Rob does because everyone has their own style of coaching, but our coaching team are way better in coaching in areas that I’m not good at.
(03:26):
So I think once you get over that thing of one of those reasons that do hold you back and really let your team shine and instil trust in them, then that’s really when your business can flourish.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah. And the business is better for it when you do relinquish that stuff. I think what you just said there about the coaches as you said it, it’s like, well, the coaches are great in their own right and we’re better off for it, but we’re better. The business is better as a result of you going off and doing the other stuff you need to. So I think this type ties in really nicely to the second word I’m going to give you and that then becomes guilt.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, that’s a big one where you’re guilty that you’re not being productive or busy because obviously for a lot of tradies, they got into their trade because they hated school, they like doing things with their hand, being busy physically solving problems, being a master of their craft, whether it’s a sparky, a plumber, carpenter builder, whatever it is, you’d like to be busy doing those things outdoors and all of a sudden you’re getting off the tools and you’re like, hang on a second, I feel there’s that internal feeling of guilt that you’re not actually being productive or making the business money because you’re not billing someone out. So guilt is a real… We could do a whole episode on it, but it’s that internal feeling where it’s that unease going, “Oh, I feel bad. I feel guilty that I’m not contributing to the business’s success or making it money.”
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, I’m not out there making shit happen every single day on the site with the people that I’m not in their vision, that sort of thing. So yeah, it’s a really big one and it does play a lot. I like that idea about doing an episode, by the way. The next two I want to talk to though are around leadership. So the two are going to be around leadership. The first one, talk around leadership in the sense of capability.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Capability is a big one where a lot of business owners don’t feel like they can get off the tools because they don’t have either the right skills or the right experience or sometimes the right tickets within their team to be able to get the job done. It reminds me of the time we were working with the Sparky and SA and Matt always used to get caught spending 15 or 20 hours on average a week on site. And it’s like, “Mate, why are you doing that? ” And there was two reasons. Number one, he was missing the experience of a leading hand to be able to actually have leadership of the jobs on site. So every time he stepped off, the jobs went pair shaped and that’s because he missed that leadership. But also he got every time that a job needed a little digger to be able to dig trenches, he was the only one with an excavator ticket.
(06:05):
And it’s like, “Mate, just go and train one of your guys up.” And so that was the reason why he kept getting sucked back onto the tools because he was missing a ticket and he was missing some leadership on site. We fixed that business took off because he had the freedom to be able to step away.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
And again, that leadership is missing the leadership, but it’s also your own leadership. Your ability to lead in a way that allows people to step in and actually do the work, to learn it, to build their capability on the job. If you’re always the one that needs to be there and your leadership isn’t such that you can step away and let someone else go in and do the work, then you’re always going to have this problem as well. The next one around leadership is the idea of leadership not being familiar. And when we’re not familiar with things, when we’re not confident, we shy away from it. And in a trade sense, being a craftsman, if you like, the idea of a perfect finish, a perfect job, the highest level I can do it to. If it’s not that, I’m not doing it at all. And this is where the tools become familiar and a chance to shine leadership isn’t.
(07:08):
And that plays a bigger game in people’s minds, I think, than what they realise.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah they do. You got to imagine you’ve been through an apprenticeship in your trade that may have been four years and then you worked your way through becoming an experienced tradesman. So that could have been a number of years. So before you even went out in business, you may have had 6, 8, 10 or more years experiencing your trade before you even went out and then started your own business. But you’re stepping into a world where you got your apprenticeship wheels back on. It’s uncommon for you to be doing sales. It’s uncommon to be in the office. It’s uncommon running the business because the business is a trade and a craft at its own. And when you step off the tools and into that environment, you’re going to suck. And so as we say in coaching, you got to embrace that suck and put your management apprenticeship wheels back on and be prepared to suck at it and not be lured back into site because it’s convenient or it’s comfortable or whatever it is that that’s a little comfort zone for you.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
And the reason why we start here is always because this is that face to facts moment. If we can face the facts and know what it is, is it trust? Is it guilt? Is it my leadership and how I’m showing up? Is it me just trying to stick with what I’m familiar with? That starts the ball rolling. Now what you’re going to have to find to get over all of those is some courage. You’re going to have to have the courage to move past what is going to be uncomfortable, something you don’t want to do. You’re going to have to have the courage to face that and move forward.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And often people use the time as the excuse. Legitimately sometimes your businesses are that size where you have to be on the tools, but this is really common for those guys who are, maybe when you unpack their week, they’re doing 10, 15, 20 hours a week on the tools. And a great example of this is a Dan, a client of ours here and Vic who runs HVAC business. He always used to use the thing of, “I don’t have time and I’m always needed on site.” It’s all that language that you’ve got to listen to. And it wasn’t until we really pushed him on it and he had to be honest to be able to go, “You know what? The real reason I am on the tools is because it is comfortable. I hate being in the office. I don’t know what I’m meant to be doing in the office and I feel bad when I’m not on site with the guys.” And so that’s why this whole rule, you’re right, this is why we’re starting here because a lot of guys who are kind of one leg over either side of the fence where they’re kind of on the tools, kind of off the tools, if you’re really honest with yourself, you probably don’t need to be on the tools, but that’s why you’re working 50, 60, 70 or more hours a week is because you’re actually squandering time and wasting it when really you could just get off the tools and focus on the things that matter at the right time.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah. And when your whole self-worth’s tied into the career you’ve had since you’re 16, we get it. It’s tough. It’s hard, but you’ve got to be willing to go there. You’ve got to be willing to get past it and make some real changes. Let’s look then at this next little bit. What’s staying on the tools actually cost? Because I think this is another misunderstanding that a lot of trades business owners have in terms of, well, what is it actually costing? A lot of them will think, well, sure, I’m missing a bit of revenue, maybe a sale here or there. But the truth is that it’s a lot more than that. And I want to start off with the idea of what you’ve seen the costs are and how you talk about it. I know where you’ll probably start is this idea of a business plateau and what that actually means when we talk about business plateaus being the thing that it costs when you stay on the tools too long.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah. The biggest cost of an owner staying on the tools is growth. A business cannot grow and that’s not because there’s opportunities out in the marketplace, it’s because the owner is at maximum capacity for what they can do in the time that they’ve got. So it’s not a market issue. It’s a capacity issue within the owner and they become the bottleneck because their time is filled with things which are sure bringing in revenue, but it’s not contributing to working on the business, which are going to contribute to the growth of the business and capitalise on the opportunities that are in the marketplace at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah. This is a real sneaky one, I think, because the idea about the opportunity, what the market’s doing, everything that’s external is painted in a negative light. So it’s easy to tip into that, but you’ve got to really explore that idea. Is it the opportunity that’s lacking or is it the capacity to take advantage of the opportunity? That’s what you’re really talking about. It’s not the market or the external factors holding you back, it’s you as the owner. That’s what’s holding this whole thing back.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Correct. There’s a really great example around this. I think it was episode number nine with Anthony Rentzis who spoke around that story of when he was recognising that the business was getting busier and that when he was on the tools, it’s sure he was bringing money into the business by being billable, but at the same time he had one Lego that either side of the fence. He was trying to be billable, but then he was also trying to run the business at the same time. And the cost came where he was missing out on quotes, he was missing out on deadlines. He was letting customers down. He was not returning phone calls when he needed to. So that was the cost, but it also then came at the cost of the growth of the business because he wasn’t working on systems, on processes, on business development, on new sales, on improving his pricing.
(12:26):
He had no time to work on the business because he was stuck in the business working on the tools. And so whenever you hear yourself saying, “I don’t have time and there’s no time to work on the business,” it’s probably because you’re spending time working in the business on the tools more often than not. And that’s at the expense of the growth of the business that you could create in the market that’s going on at the moment.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah. There’s so many other things around that, like recruiting, training, just building key stakeholder relationships. All that stuff is what gets missed and people just gloss over that like it’s nothing, but that’s the pathway to growth that they’re talking about. So there’s got to be some point where the owner makes a real decision about doing this. This isn’t something you sort of fall into or you wean yourself off the tools. Now you might in terms of time, but it’s not sort of like a thing where you find yourself going off the tools. You’ve got to actually make a decision and a point in time, plan for it and say, “That’s what I’m working towards.”
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, correct. It is a real decision point. And I know when I’m talking to a trades guy for the first time where they’re like, “Something’s got to change, crazy hours, not making the money, the one I’m feeling disconnected from my family.” I ask them the question, “How many hours do you week you working?” Or 60 hours, how many of them on the tools, maybe 10, 15, 20 or more. And I always ask that question going, “Are you ready to actually step off the tools and start running this business correctly?” And they go, “Yeah, I kind of am.” I’m like, “Mate, are you really ready? Because if you’re not, then we can’t help you. You’ve got to be in that position where you’ve made the actual decision where it’s time to get one leg off either side of the fence and actually step into being a business owner rather than a tradie trying to do both things.” And it’s a real decision point, isn’t it?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
It is. It’s the equivalent, as you were talking, I’m thinking about people that quit smoking. It’s like you ask every smoker, “Do you want to smoke?” “No, I hate it. Don’t want to do it. I wish I couldn’t do it. I wish I didn’t do it. “Same thing for guys on the tools. Do you want to get off the tools? The majority say,” Yeah, of course I do. That’s why I’m talking to you now, Rob. I want to get off the tools. “But there’s a big difference between wanting to and actually deciding to make the break and doing something about it.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah. A great example of that is I had a conversation actually today with a guy called Scott and he’s really stuck in this no man’s land where he’s too big to be small, too small to be big. And he’s in that position where he’s still doing the 20 odd hours a week on the tools and he’s recently put an admin person on and he’s won a big job coming to the back end. He’s trying to price more work to fill his pipeline and he’s like, ” Rob, I’m just stuck. I’m not moving forward or I got all these things, but I’m on the tools and blah, blah, blah. “I said,” Mate, do you really need to be there? “And he goes,” To be honest, I probably don’t need to be there. “And that came after a bit of conversation and it came back to the trust thing.
(15:18):
He’s like, ” I just don’t trust the guys that they’re just going to be able to do what they need to get done. “And then we spoke through that tools are familiar, it’s familiar where I need to be and I don’t know what I’m meant to be doing in the office. So this whole conversation was playing out. And then I just said to him,” Scotty, are you really ready to step up and move into this position? “He goes,” You know what I am? “I said,” Great. Well, let’s talk about what we’ve got to do to round out your ground crew and create balance and order and get the right capability and capacity in the team. So you’ve got the confidence that the guys can deliver the work productively so that you can actually spend time in the office growing this business. “And I think when that penny dropped, he’s like, ” Yes, I’ve made the decision.
(16:01):
I know what I need to get done. Let’s make the moves to be able to make that happen. “So I think there’s a real life example where all this has come to life for this guy. I know now that you get the right coaching around in the right management capability and the right ground crew designed well, then that’s what’s going to be the turning point in his world.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yeah. Great. Really, really good. Let’s break that down a litle bit further. I want to move into now what we call progressive replacement. So the idea, these are the steps you need to take if you want to sort of step back. It’s a little catch or phrase if you like it, but progressive replacement. Let’s talk about the first thing. The goal of this isn’t to get off the tools as quick as possible. It’s not, I’m getting off the tools tomorrow, that’s it. I’m putting everything away because that doesn’t work. There’s still going to be moments and times as you walk through this that it has to be progressive. There’s things that are going to happen. There’s a couple of steps forward, there’s a step back. You’ve got to expect that to be the way that this flows.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, you do. It is number one, because you’ve got to remember, every time you take more time off the tools, number one, it’s less billable time that you’re doing. So it’s less revenue that you’re contributing to the top line, but the more time that you are off the tools, you become more of an overhead to the business. And so your wage that you take for you and your family to live off all of a sudden becomes an overhead in the business and that needs to be paid out of the margin of a job. So you get paid out of the margin of your team. So this is where it’s a real point where if you take yourself off the tools way too quickly, not only do you have to hire someone to replace you, but then you become an overhead and it can create financial pressure within the business, let alone you just dragging yourself off site and you lack that leadership.
(17:52):
So we’ve got to be really aware of the financial implications of taking you off site tomorrow or off the job sites tomorrow because it can do a lot of damage if you do it too quickly, can’t it?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Always, always. We see this all the time. You might want it really bad. You might really want to make that. You might think, well, I’m just going to rough it. I’m just going to go cold turkey on this thing. Every time that’s the quickest way to fall into a hole, absolutely guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
The key word there is transition, isn’t it?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, it is. It’s a transition. It’s a journey you go on. It doesn’t happen overnight. You’ve got to groove it. And like you said, you’ve got to be realistic. There’s times when people get sick, high guys will be off work. Things will happen sideways that you can’t have that mindset, “I’d never do it again.” You’re just going to trip yourself up. There’s no easy way to say it.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And you transition from five down to four, down to three, down to two, down to one day on the tools. And then if you lose a key member, it’s not like, “Well, I don’t go back onto the tools ever again.” It’s like you’ve got a business to run. You’ve got customers to look after. It’s like if you need to be back on the tools three days a week, get back on the tools three days a week, you transition off the tools, but then you remember, you’re the floater. You got to step in and out as your team need to, because you’ve got a business to run and customers to look after in the end of the day.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah. And on the back of that then we’re going into the next little thing, which is building the capability around you. How do you go from five to four to three to two? That’s a result of you building capability within the team you’ve got. If you don’t do that, you will have gaps. You will have things where you’re missing stuff, you trust your anxiety will go through the roof because you’ve got no evidence to say that my team is capable of running this way. You might want to, but the team’s not capable. So there’s a real idea that to take the steps forward, you’ve got to invest time in building capability with the team and the people around you.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
How many times have we heard it when it’s like, “Oh, when I got off the tools, my team turned pear shaped and productivity went downhill.” And it’s like, yeah, that’s going to happen if you don’t invest back into your team to get that right. So if you just rip yourself off the tools and you’re the one with the most experience, all the qualifications, all the tickets, and the only one that does the thinking on the job sites or whatever work that you’re doing, if you just rip yourself out and you then sit in the office and don’t have a presence on site, then there’s going to be absent leadership on the tools. And so you’ve got to remember, as you’re phasing yourself, as you’re transitioning off the tools, like you said, you got to bring in that capability, bring the experience, bring the skillset, develop the team around you as you phase off.
(20:26):
And that might take six or 12 months or more to get off the tools, but slow and steady off the tools always beats, “Hey, let’s just get off and go, ” because otherwise it just leaves huge holes in the ground crew, doesn’t it?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah you’re going to be running around like a maniac. The things that you could have got as the benefit of doing it right, you won’t get to them either. You’re going to just multiply the problems rather than realise the benefits of the restructure or you moving off the tools.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
It goes from having no time to all of a sudden you’re getting a hundred calls a day because your team keep ringing you, you may as well just being on the tools.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
That’s exactly right, exactly right. So now going on from there, the next thing, the last little piece we want to talk about, and this is a question that it’s almost like a little mini challenge, but the idea and the mindset here is most trades business owners think, what else do I have to do? Especially the ones that we get that come to us in coaching. It’s almost like, what else do I have to do? I really want to succeed. It’s not a lack of desire that’s holding them back, but the mindset is, what else do I have to add? What else can I take on is their primary question where as you do this transition and you’re trying to get off the tools, a better question to say is, what can I stop doing this quarter, this period? What can I take off my plate rather than what else do I have to take on to break through and have the business that I want?
(21:43):
And I think it’s a little mind trick, but it’s so powerful when you look at it that way because then you’re going to start moving in the direction you need to.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah. Something’s got to give an order for you to get and you got to take away before you can take on. And that’s what you’re saying here is what can you stop doing before you start doing something else? And this is a nice little sense check. It’s a gut check. It’s the ability to be strategic around what LVTs or low value tasks can you delegate off your plate into your ground crew to start phasing them off. Maybe it’s around deliveries, maybe it’s around ordering materials, maybe it’s around a certain bit of equipment you drive. If you can just over time just phase these off your plate like you said every quarter, then this is what you stop doing before you start.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
And if you do that quarter by quarter and like we say the refrain is one thing at a time over time. If you did that and you did one thing a quarter, your role, your ability to be off the tool sustainably where you can over 12 months, you’ve got a fundamentally different role and the business looks completely different for all the things you’ve been able to do with that time that you’ve now got back to work on the business.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, what a great episode. I really like this because what it is, is it’s just accepting at the front that growth does store when you’re on the tools. That’s what this episode is about is that you got on the tools because you loved wanted to be a tradesman. But when you get into business, being great on the tools does not make you a great businessman. There’s got to be a point in time where you accept that you can’t be the best and it’s no longer good enough for you to be the best in the crew. And there’s got to be a time where you go, “You know what? It’s time for me to step off the tools.” That decision is different for everyone. Some people can’t wait to get off the tools. Other guys will go a little bit longer, but it’s when the timing’s right for you, when you’re like, “You know what? I’m ready to stop being the tradie and I’m ready to start being a businessman.” And I think that’s the power of this episode is hopefully we’re putting a little mirror in front of you to be able to go, “Is it time?” And hopefully it’s getting you to realise that if you’re not getting the results that you want in business right now, it’s probably because you’re doing the wrong stuff and putting your energy into the wrong areas.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah. And I think to stress that decision is the decision you make, then you go on the journey. Most guys put it the other way around. I’ll go on the journey, see if it works, then I can make the commitment that this is the way it’s going to be. It doesn’t work that way. So really, really focusing in on the steps we’ve outlined and some of this stuff can unlock that first thing where everything falls into place and starts the journey going on after it.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
If you’re still on the tools most of the week and wondering why the business isn’t moving, it’s not a market problem, it’s probably your role that’s the problem. And if you’re ready to make that change, like if you’re at that point where you’ve made the decision that you’re ready to no longer be a great tradesman and start to be a great businessman, you want to step off the tools and really grow the team around you and you’re looking for the right strategy and what needs to get done when and who needs to get higher and when, what opportunities do I need to capitalise, then that’s why we have these strategy calls because what we’re doing is picking apart your business and your role. We’re looking forward to be able to go, where do you want to go? What do you want to be able to achieve?
(25:04):
We really strategically lay that roadmap out for you. So you walk away with that from that strategy call with complete clarity to be able to go from where you’re at to where you want to go to really build that owner operate a business where you can be off the tools. You’ve got that team around you and you’ve got the time to be able to spend with your family. So if that’s something of interest to you, you are ready to make that change and jump across to strategysession.com.au, fill out the application form, booking a time that suits you. Let’s have a great conversation and get the process started. What a great topic, Dan. It’s a topic that every business owner rubs up against in some point in their journey, don’t they?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
They do. All I will say in finishing is rather than get scared about it rather than doubt yourself is just get excited and do something about it. Take a step, lean into it and see where it takes you. I can’t stress that enough. If you can get excited about it and take the action, that’s going to be the thing you look back on and go, “That was the moment. That was the decision I made.”
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Start taking action and looking forward to coming back to you on another episode here on The Trade Den. Until then, take care.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Talk to you soon.