Episode 134 Podcast Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):

People do want to work. There’s plenty of proof around there that there are good apprentices and good tradesmen who actually want to work. And it’s just that the market’s changed. The labour market has changed. You have to change to be able to adapt your style, to be able to ensure that you’re changing and evolving and growing as a leader as the market changes as well. G’day everyone. Rob Kropp and Dan Stones here from Pravar Group and welcome back to another episode of The Trade Den. Good to have you back, Dan. How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:32):

Yeah, very well. Thank you, Rob. Hi everyone. Yeah, I like this episode today. This is what I like. It’s a line that gets thrown around a lot in the industry. We know why, because everyone gets burnt by people. We have no shows. We have them. Trades industries have them. Professional service, whatever you want to pick, there’s no shows. There’s people that quit after three weeks. In trades, apprentices come and go seemingly endlessly. Every one of those things hurts and everyone sort of try. It just lends itself to that excuse, that idea that, see, it’s proof that nobody wants to work anymore. And I think that’s the tackling it though has to be done because if it was true, everyone would be in that position. It’s just not true. So we’ve got to change our attitude and our approach to it.

Speaker 1 (01:16):

Yeah, I think it’s just a blanket statement and there’s probably elements to it, but the reality is that just times have changed and times are different now. And unless you adapt your style and your approach, then you’re always going to keep having this issue where it’s them, not you, which is what we’re going to address today.

Speaker 2 (01:36):

Yeah. And I think the idea as well that people choose where they work. They’re making a choice 9 times out of 10. It’s a choice of where they want to work. They’ve got options, they use them. They don’t chase down and choose to work for people that have bad cultures, that embrace chaos, where it’s a shit show to be or the culture’s bad, people have really low standards. It’s just not the case. So I think there’s that attitude that, hey, there’s more to this than what you might be seeing on the surface or what you keep throwing out there and the results you’re getting.

Speaker 1 (02:09):

And there’s no doubt that there might be less people coming through trade school. They might be opting for different careers rather than the traditional path of a trade and especially some trades. So there’s no doubt it is harder today, but it’s not impossible because there’s plenty of businesses out there who have good people that want to work for them and want to turn up and want to do a job, but there’s a lot of businesses who can’t do that. And so today we’re going to tackle this head on because it may not be out there what the problem is. And that’s where the face of the facts conversation might come out of today, hopefully.

Speaker 2 (02:50):

Yep. Not hopefully. I’m fired up now. I’m ready. The first thing we’re going to tackle today is going to be this whole idea of nobody wants to work. We’re going to look at that as a mirror and really see what that means and what it could be saying. Secondly, we’re going to look at what are the people that are fully staffed, the people that are enjoying good teams and being able to do that. What are they doing differently and how do you become on that side of the fence? How do you make that shift? So that’s really what we’ve got lined up. So first things first, as you said, the idea of nobody wants to work and we hear it said all the time, it lets people off the hook, but it’s an excuse and it does nothing to help you change your situation. So when you hear that, I’m really keen to hear what you think about when you hear that statement being made, when you’re coaching people, when you hear it out in businesses.

Speaker 1 (03:41):

Yeah. To me, it says that it’s not necessarily just a labour issue. It’s a leadership shortage issue. It’s a leadership shortage of good leaders who know how to get the best out of their people. And that’s what it is. It’s not that people have necessarily gone soft or there’s no good people out there. There are actually really good people out there who do want to work and do want to do an honest day’s work. But as you said, people have got choice. People just don’t put up with that shit anymore. And more often than not, it’s a leadership issue. That’s what it really is because leaders haven’t evolved to become the leader, to show up as the best leader that they can be for the workforce that operates in today’s world. That’s the real issue that’s going on here.

Speaker 2 (04:31):

Yeah. And I don’t care who’s saying it. Everyone that starts their rant with that sort of statement, those are the people that have the highest turnover. Those are the ones that are just living in this world, but accepting the excuse. And you’re right, evolving with times, people aren’t leaving or not making the choice to come and work for you because of money. It’s so rarely being the issue. You won’t get people if you put out stupid rates and you want to undercut everyone and pay no good money. That still applies, but it’s not money that’s why good people leave. It’s not why good people choose to work for you. As you said, it’s not 2020 anymore. I mean, we’re only going back six years, but it’s not that. Times move on and really quick. And I think this ability to adapt, as you said, you’ve got to really front up honestly and say, “Well, where am I in this?

(05:23):

What am I doing? Am I the sort of person that attracts people to come and want to work here to make that choice?”

Speaker 1 (05:29):

Yeah, especially with the younger guys coming through, it’s a different generation. Their motives are different, their drives are different, who they are and what’s the norm for them around technology and what they want in a career. We operate in a different world today, even than we did one or two years ago, let alone even six years ago, let alone even 10 years ago. Times have changed, the markets have changed, employment conditions have changed. What used to be acceptable five or 10 years ago is just not acceptable anymore. And if as leaders, we don’t evolve and adapt and learn to lead and manage people differently in today’s times, we’re always going to make it their problem rather than us taking ownership for doing something different.

Speaker 2 (06:19):

Yeah. And you’ll always get those same results. Like we sort of say, people have got options. It’s not like they’re sitting here going, “You’re the only place where no one wants to work.” There’s options everywhere, good jobs, good careers. There’s new industries growing as we speak at the moment. So opportunity for people wanting to work is everywhere. So it’s never going to be about that. So they will punish people or ignore people that don’t meet the mark. And I think that’s the big part of this first part of the episode is really talking around, are you meeting the mark and where do you sit on that? Because until you do that honestly, you are going to run that risk of just ignoring the biggest indicator of why you can’t find anyone or not so much you can’t find them, but good people don’t want to work for you.

(07:03):

That’s the truth.

Speaker 1 (07:04):

Yeah. There’s no doubt with like here at the moment where the big data centres are propping up or the big builds going on in big capital cities and governments and those big data centres are just throwing silly money to be able to attract people. We get that that’s going on, but not everyone wants to work in those environments. Not everyone wants to works in the tunnels or big government jobs or in big data centres. That’s not what drives everyone’s behaviour. There’s a portion of people that will, but we’re talking about those employees that you’ve got who you just think are lazy, cut corners, aren’t interested, mope around. Those people aren’t the problem. It’s because they’re potentially not inspired around the work that they’re doing. They’re not feeling fulfilled in their jobs. They’ve got a business that is clunky and feeling backwards. The business isn’t embracing technology.

(08:01):

These are the things that are going on where these younger generation of trades and apprentices coming through the ranks is they want to feel like they’ve got different motives and different drivers and different ideals around what they want in a workplace. And so that’s why as leaders, we’ve got to do things differently to make sure that we’re adaptable in today’s employment environment rather than continuing to run our business like we used to.

Speaker 2 (08:29):

Yeah. Nice. Well, let’s turn that corner and then look at what are the good operators doing differently. I mean, as you said, it’s the same market, it’s the same people, it’s the same conditions that they’re operating and yet they’re winning. So let’s look at it. What are they doing? And for me, it sort of starts with, like you said, we’re going to talk here around the way they lead, the way they manage their people, the way that they show up every day. And for me, let’s start with clarity. They’re clear about what good jobs look like, what success looks like, what’s expected. They’re clear about where the business is going. There’s a real clarity to these businesses. They’re not all over the place. There’s a clear, “Here’s what I’m signing up for. I know what I’m going to get.”

Speaker 1 (09:13):

Yeah. People want to belong to a business that’s winning and going places and enjoyable to work at and fun to work at. And they know they’ve got clarity around what their work is and they do good work and they’re not working on the shit work. People want to have clarity around what they’re doing, why they’re doing it, and talk about it in a minute, but where they’re going and enjoyment, fulfilment and having meaning in their work. I know they’re buzzwords and you think it doesn’t relate to a trades business, but it absolutely does. A good tradesman wants to have pride in their work and enjoy what they do and belong to an organisation that’s actually going places.

Speaker 2 (09:55):

Yeah. And like you said, good tradesmen, the good people know this. This is what the good people look for. So if you want good people, these are the clues. The second one I think, Rob, is growth. I’m here to grow as a person. We all thrive on growth. Our work, which takes up such a big part of our life, being able to grow and mature and stay engaged and improve is something that really is attractive to people. That’s something that will make me want to show up at least and choose you.

Speaker 1 (10:25):

Yeah. I think in today’s world, I think about my dad, he spent, I think it was over two decades at the power station in Gladstone. I think it was over 20 years as an operator at the power station. And it’s rare these days. You don’t get a lot of long serving employees where they got the golden ticket or the watch or the whatever it is on the way out. That’s changed. That’s no longer the norm in businesses these days. And I think about what we’ve got at Pravar. Steve, our first coach has been around for 11 and a half years. We just gave him the benefit of the ability to facilitate long service leave. Gav’s coming up to 10 years, Danni’s on eight years, and you’ve been here for a number of years as well. So it’s good businesses, people want to stick around, but the reason why those employees want to stick around is because they’ve got career paths.

(11:26):

They feel like they’re growing and expanding and learning and new opportunities and they can see a path for them to be able to grow in the business as the business is growing as well. And I think if people don’t see those opportunities, they look elsewhere to be able to see, well, where else and what else can I do to be able to get that growth?

Speaker 2 (11:46):

Yeah. I’m going to throw one in here on top of growth as well. The growth for themselves, yes, but also the ability to contribute. Have they got a chance to contribute? I’m going to put in all this effort. I’m going to show up. I am good. I’ve got something of value to contribute. If they can’t see a way to do that where they’re working, they’ll leave. It’s as simple as that. And that’s, I don’t want to work for you again being said to the owner of the business. I need that. That’s so important to people. And I think it’s almost criminally underrated when you start talking to business owners that throw this excuse out there. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:19):

And that’s why I like when we’re working with clients to be able to help them grow their businesses. I’m a big believer of growing it from the inside out. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that you give your best tradesman a project manager role or whatever it is. You’ve got to give the right person the right position to be able to move into that. But how many times have we seen it with clients where someone’s come on as apprentice, they got qualified, they’ve built from the inside out and then they’ve eventually over time moved into a leading hand, potentially a PM or an estimator. And we get to see it where we run an emerging managers programme for our clients, for their managers. And how cool is it for us to be able to go, “Oh, I remember that guy that you had a tradesman brought him on as a PM and now we’re training him as a PM to be a better manager.” For us, it’s so good to be able to see that where our clients are giving their employees those opportunities to grow and expand and contribute inside the organisation as the business does grow.

Speaker 2 (13:19):

There really is. It never really fails. It always comes to a good point as we do that. So I love that too. The next thing that these people that are making that choice and want to work where they want to work is respect. And I think that’s a big one. And I think respect, not as in molly coddling to people and trying to be nice and making sure they feel all pumped up, but talk to them like adults. Acknowledge the effort that goes in, just be decent. And I think that’s, again, in today’s world, it’s lacking, but that’s the thing that needs to be said. The stuff that’s not getting said is, “I’m going to treat you like an adult. I’m going to give you an acknowledgement where it’s there. We’re going to talk honestly and openly.” And I think people appreciate that as a place in a world they want to live in.

(14:06):

It’s just hard to find. But again, it’s one of those keys and one of those secrets to having people say, “No, I’m choosing you because of that very reason.”

Speaker 1 (14:14):

Yeah. I think the stigma of the trades and construction industry is slowly changing, where it used to be known as the hard nose industry. And you hear stats of where every couple of days someone commits suicide in the blue collar industry. And so there is still fundamentally those issues going on inside of blue collar businesses where there’s fundamentally issues where blokes don’t feel like that they can speak up and talk around the things that are going on for us as blokes. But I think that in light of that, as a leader, we’ve got a responsibility to play there, to be able to create an environment based on respect and trust and appreciation for the people that we’ve got. And it’s about creating opportunities where I know that we’re big advocates of Tradie Mutt and the guys and their sister company like TIACS, and then our clients go on to be able to provide those opportunities where they do mental health support for their team and all those types of things.

(15:15):

They’re the things that you can do as a leader, not to feel like, oh, it’s like I’m being soft for my team. It’s like, no, you’re helping your team be there for them and help them through the challenges that they’ve got and any mental health issues or any personal issues that you’ve got.This is what we mean that it’s a leadership shortage. It’s because if you look after your people, your people are the number one asset in your business, more important than your customers, because if you look after your people and you show them respect and be there for them and still expect hard work, then they’re going to want to work for you and for the business. The loyalty will be there if you look after them in the end of the day.

Speaker 2 (15:57):

Yeah. It’s a real outcome of all of this that goes into it to get that tenure, to have the Steves, to have the Dannis and have those people be here. They choose that every year, every week. They’re choosing to stay here for that long because I guarantee the things that we’ve listed, clarity, growth, respect, contribution, it’s all there. There’s some element of that in here. There’s one more we have to talk about. And I’ll say it’s different to growth, but you can talk through it and it’ll make sense. But training and development, and that to me is, it’s one of those things. If you are not doing it, you will lose to someone that does every time. It’s just that black and white. So training and development, how do you view that?

Speaker 1 (16:38):

There’s that famous quote by Richard Branson that says, “Train them so well that they could leave. Treat them so well that they don’t.” And I think a lot of business owners are so scared that it’s like, “Well, if I invest in that person that they could go and leave and go and work at a competitor and go and do their own thing.” It’s like, “Well, if you don’t invest in that person, you’re going to have a lower performing person who doesn’t want to work and you’re not going to get the most out of them.” And so the reason why I love that quote, it’s like, well, it’s about developing your people, training them, giving them opportunities, helping them develop their skills and their craft as a trades person within your business. Give them more responsibility, delegate more to them because if you give your people a sense of ownership and a sense of responsibility and a sense of opportunity to grow and expand and develop within their roles, why would they leave?

(17:31):

Especially if they’re getting paid well, why would they go and leave? And they’re naturally going to work harder if you invest into them. If you invest into them and create a great environment where they want to work, they will want to work. So it’s only the people who don’t train, don’t develop, don’t create opportunities for their team. No wonder they’ve got a workforce who don’t want to turn up and work for them.

Speaker 2 (17:53):

Yeah, absolutely. I want to talk a little bit a story in this, I think that explains this. So if you think that all the things that we’ve listed and talked about today, a client that really comes to mind, and the reason why it’s top of my mind as we’re doing this episode, I recently had the opportunity to coach them again. I started coaching them years ago and hadn’t coached them for a while, but Phil Dawes from The Great Outdoors, he had a massive, not an issue with people not wanting to work with him, but just the idea of it was hard. There was no good people out there. It was hard to get. No one wants to work anymore. And he said that more than once, but he really lent into these principles and this idea that, well, I either accept that and my business is really going to suffer.

(18:34):

This is going to stagnate and go nowhere or I’ve got to challenge it. And he was up for the challenge of looking at all of this. Do people even know? And I think you talked about this even at the time, the idea that you can’t sell a secret into the marketplace and people need to see this, but they’ve got to see it demonstrated. So demonstrating clarity, showing where the growth is, you’ve got to invest that in yourself as a business owner first and really get that straight to be able to actually benefit from it. You don’t get to just go nod your head and say, “Yeah, that all makes sense. I think I do it.” Really challenge yourself, really hold the mirror up, which is what Phil did. And to this day, he’s still got people from three years ago, I reckon it was, that he still keeps in contact on the maybe list.

(19:17):

He’s still got people that are reaching out to him. Have we got any of these roles coming up? People that are still choosing the jobs they’re in to come to him now, but it’s not like he just did this once. It’s literally banishing that excuse forever, regardless of the upturns, the downturns and all that sort of thing. You’re going to have times where it’s tight in the market. You’re going to have times where it seems like there’s no one around, but you show up this way, I guarantee you’ll be able to, people will still choose to work for you. You will still find people that do want to work, but the thing is they’re choosing to work for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:52):

And if you look at how Phil’s done this, he’s done this over the last couple of years in an Adelaide market that’s been a growing. It’s been a buoyant market. The property market has been super hot. At the time of recording this, it’s an employer’s market, not an employee’s market. And right now there’s people out there, plenty of people looking for work. But with Phil, he’s done this in a market that’s been an employee’s market that’s been super tight for employers where he’s positioned his business in a way that has attracted people to come and want to work for him. But then when he’s got people in the organisation, he’s worked on giving them clarity around the role, he’s given them growth opportunities, he’s trained them, he’s developed them, he’s enabled them to contribute to their role. And then that’s not because he’s done that, people have stuck around and because people have stuck around, the culture’s got better because the culture’s got better, they’re being more productive, which means they’re outputting better work, which means they’re now attracting better quality clients, better work, average ticket sales going up, average dollar projects sales are going up, I should say, because he’s in the projects landscaping space.

(21:04):

But it’s all come down to the fact that he attracted better people and developed his people from the inside out and they want to be there to work. And it’s not this bullshit story of, well, no one just wants to work anymore and young people these days, they’re bloody lazy and they just want everything for nothing. No, Phil has become the leader that has developed those people where they want to work for his organisation. That’s the punchline out of this.

Speaker 2 (21:30):

Yeah, absolutely. 100%. Well said. I agree. Let’s do a challenge on where to start, this whole ball rolling. What do you reckon?

Speaker 1 (21:38):

Let’s do it.

Speaker 2 (21:39):

And I’m going to change it a little bit. I had this prepared as one, ask one team member one question, but I want to challenge everyone to go and ask their whole team and just get the feeling of the answers that come back. But the question you need to ask, and you can do it asking for responses, text, whatever, I don’t care. But the question is, what’s one thing that would make this a better place to work? And I want you to really soak in the answers that come back and use it as a test against what we’ve said here today and see if you can match up the answers you get to the elements that we spoke here today on what people are looking for to make that choice. I think when they do that, don’t try and justify it. Don’t defend it. Don’t react to it.

(22:23):

Just absorb it, just listen and then write everything down, collate that, and you’ll start to see how you can change that choice that people are making in the market and how quickly you can drop that excuse of no one wants to work anymore.

Speaker 1 (22:39):

Okay. Love it. When they get that feedback, what do you think they can do with it?

Speaker 2 (22:44):

I think it starts to become the action. I think there’s going to be an action that you can take, and there’s probably two elements to the action, Rob. I think one is, what can I do with the team I’ve got and how do I change the environment we’ve got here now? But then also in the mirror, how do I change myself and my approach? So I think there’s a dual edge. Once you get all the answers, pick the one that resonates to you first. Don’t try and do everything at once because you’ll just create chaos, but do one at a time and just sort of focus on, well, how is that me and what can I do to change myself in this answer? And what can I do to make it a better place to work for the people that are here already?

Speaker 1 (23:22):

And I think the key out of that one is focus on the man looking in the mirror, not focusing on them. Because as we said in this episode is it’s not a labour issue, it’s a leadership shortage right now. And focus on the things that what you can do differently through this process. Because if you can show up differently, you can create better clarity, better training and development, creating a better environment, working on your culture, whatever you can do, that’s what you want to be able to get out of this feedback mechanism of this challenge. Not what are they going to do differently? It’s what can you do differently and how you can show up as a leader better.

Speaker 2 (23:59):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (24:01):

Hopefully you’ve enjoyed today’s episode. Today’s really about breaking this pattern of conversation in the marketplace that no one wants to work. You can’t find good people out there. The younger generation these days, they just don’t want to work. It’s not true. People do want to work. There’s plenty of proof around there that there are good apprentices and good tradesmen who actually want to work. And it’s just that the market’s changed. The labour market has changed and so to you. You have to change to be able to adapt your style, to be able to ensure that you’re changing and evolving and growing as a leader as the market changes as well. Now, if you’re in that position where you’re like, “I know I need to change, but I don’t know where to start or how to change or what to do, and you know that there’s a leadership shortage in your world and you’d like some help developing this, then jump it across to strategysession.com.au. Let’s have a conversation around where you’re at and where you’re trying to go, and let’s talk through how we can help you become the leader that you know that your business needs. Hopefully you’ve enjoyed today’s episode and we’re looking forward to coming back to you with another episode of The Trade Den very shortly. Until then, take care.

Speaker 2 (25:07):

See you soon.