Episode 135 Podcast Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):

The main thing we’ve tried to do today is just try and put the brakes on this idea that the best tradie automatically is the first one to be looked at for a management role or coming into that operational side of the business.

Speaker 2 (00:16):

G’day everyone. Rob Kropp and Dan Stones here from Pravar Group, and welcome back to another episode of The Trade Den. Welcome back, Dan. How are you?

Speaker 1 (00:23):

Going very well. Thank you, Rob. Hello everyone. Looking forward to this one today. It’s a bit of a bug bearer as coaches. We hear this all the time, this idea of who do I promote? How do I get this next person into my business? And I think it’s a natural state that this decision comes up for everyone. So I think it applies to absolutely everyone who’s going to listen to this episode that you will hit a point somewhere where you have to bring in or step someone up. You’ve got someone that has to come in and look at running the team. So I think for today, the first thing to say is this is a really globally applicable challenge that everyone in a trades business faces.

Speaker 2 (00:58):

Yeah, naturally, because when you’re trying to grow a business, leverage is key. There’s only so much that you can do by yourself at the operational level. There’s a point where you’ve got to make a decision to get off the tools. There’s a point where you’ve got to bring in bookkeeping and admin support. But I generally find around for in particular a trades business around that one and a half to two-ish million dollar mark, there’s got to be a point in time where you bring in dedicated operational support, whether that be a maintenance supervisor or a project manager or a supervisor or an operations manager, whatever you want to call them. There’s got to be that point in time where you bring someone in operationally to be able to help run the crews in your business because otherwise if you don’t and develop that structure, there almost becomes that point in time, Dan, where the business plateaus. So this role is really critical, isn’t it?

Speaker 1 (01:45):

Yeah. As we say, you’ve got a capacity issue that you need to deal with. You can’t spread yourself any thinner. Things get worse the bigger you get at this point, unless you do get that support in. I think the other thing to say is you are an advocate of promoting from within, but that’s not what we’re really talking about today. There’s ways to do that and there’s a real structure to it. It’s not the guts of this episode, but it’s an important thing to say that there is the opportunity to do this where we’ve got to be really clear about that upfront.

Speaker 2 (02:13):

Yeah, I am. You’ve also got to do it in the right order. There’s a right order to restructure a business where first you’ve got to build out your ground crew. And then I’m a big advocate of really beefing in your office crew, which is bookkeeping and operational admin to begin with because there are a lower risk, lower cost resource that you can bring in to build those LVTs. But naturally when you do have a business that’s growing, you have to bring in that operational support. And you’re right, I am an advocate of promoting from within. There’s pros and cons from both. I think when you’re bringing someone into the business in that off the tools operational level, the downside of that is you’ve got to drop them in at a full-time rate and you’re bringing an unknown resource into the business to be a manager.

(03:04):

So there’s a downside there, but I am a big advocate of stepping someone in because you get the opportunity to create a career path. You get a trusted person that you’ve known over a longer period of time. You can step them up part-time to begin with where they’re still somewhat billable and non-billable as they transition to the role. So there’s all these pros and cons around either which way you want to go, but I am a big advocate of promoting from within, from someone on the tools into an operational level for sure.

Speaker 1 (03:35):

Yeah. I think the asterisk on all of that is that there’s a right way to do it, like you said, and we’ve got a very specific way that we do coach that. But I think the idea of where people start to go wrong and where it starts to get muddied in that sense is when people hire for convenience and not out of the best interest of the business or for the role that they’re absolutely hiring for.

Speaker 2 (03:55):

Yeah. Often it’s almost a reactive thing, isn’t it? Where it’s like, shit, we’re getting busy. We’ve got to get someone in there. It’s like, oh, let’s just drop someone in. And it’s almost person first, drop them in the role and work it out later. And that’s the biggest danger, isn’t it?

Speaker 1 (04:09):

It really is. And that’s because they’re two different things, right? Two different jobs, two different skill sets, and one being the best tradesman’s one thing. The output that someone can give you on the tools and on site, all of those sort of things is one thing. But the other, how do you organise yourself and how do you go beyond organising just yourself and your own performance and starting to plan and communicate and work with other people? Very different skill sets. So I think it’s a bigger thing than most people think making this move, but people seem to reduce it to the simplest, quickest, easiest, most convenient trigger I can pull and get it done in a week. And it rarely ends up well.

Speaker 2 (04:45):

Yeah. I think this doesn’t just relate to the trade space. You think about a real estate office, for example. Someone’s a gun salesperson and then they put someone in there as all of a sudden becoming a sales manager. And what makes someone a really good sales agent does not make them a good sales manager. I know in Pravar, we came up against this where when we were looking at bringing in the coach and operations manager role, the role that you play, it was like, well, you don’t just promote the longest standing coach that we’ve had. We had to take a step back and strategically look at the role, the responsibility and look at that first before you think about the person. So it doesn’t matter what industry you’re in, this applies actually to all businesses, but today we’re particularly going to talk about the trade space.

Speaker 1 (05:32):

Yeah. Let’s look at the three things we are going to talk about today. So the first is why this promotion keeps happening on autopilot, like we said, the convenience, the speed, all that sort of stuff. So why does that happen? Second thing is going to be what is the actual cost, the hidden cost, the second cost, if you like, when it goes wrong and really making sure that people understand that. And then the third is how do you decide who should get the nod? How do you make that decision? And some of the key things you can be looking for and thinking about where you keep the best of both worlds and you get the best result for the business. So those are the three things we’re going to do. So let’s start with number one, why does the best tradie get the nod every time?

(06:11):

It’s not usually made on management ability, but it’s made on their results as a tradie. But why do you think owners keep reaching for the best tradie even when they know and they. There’s so many examples that they would’ve heard it, that it’s a real struggle when you do that if you get it wrong.

Speaker 2 (06:28):

I think for me, the thing that comes to mind is often someone who’s been in the business the longest, there’s that sense of. There’s a couple of things. There’s a sense of obligation. They may have started as an apprentice, they’ve moved into a tradesman, they’ve then become a leading hand, and they may have been in the business for six, seven, eight, 10 years. And it’s almost like you’re really good mates with them and they’ve been loyal to the business, you’ve been loyal to them. And it’s almost like the assumption that that person just gets the gig and they get promoted on based on somewhat loyalty rather than best fit for the role, I’d say.

Speaker 1 (07:10):

Yeah. And I like what you said there about mate because I think early days you see this where guys are working with their best mate or they start the business, it’s invariably going to be, “Well, I can’t overlook that guy. If I overlook him, something bad’s really going to happen. I’m going to lose a relationship. I’m going to lose my best trade. I’m going to lose that guy because they feel that they’re owed that for the loyalty that they’ve had.” So that makes sense to me. The other one I see a lot, I’m keen to get your thoughts on this, is people use it as a retention tool almost. It is so that they can keep the person, but more than that, it’s the justification for a pay rise. It’s like, “Well, if I’m going to pay someone who’s really good at their job, they need to take on.

(07:48):

It comes with more responsibility.” And we hear this argument from guys all the time in coaching where it’s like, “Well, if I’m going to pay them that money, they need to take on more responsibility. I need to see more out of them to do that in the sense of I’m going to lift them up into a role that justifies the pay rise that they’d be looking for.” And I think that’s a big one as well that people use in the back of their mind to go, “Well, it’s got to be that guy because it’s the only way I can afford to keep him and pay him the money that he’d be looking for.”

Speaker 2 (08:13):

Yeah. To the next layer to add to that is that often comes from a place of fear, like I’m scared of losing that guy or I’m scared of someone who’s been in the business eight years and there’s someone who’s been in the business four years and you put the guy that’s been in there for four years over into that to all of a sudden having to manage that person. It’s a subconscious fear where it’s like, well, what happens if, how will he take it if I promote this guy? Or what happens if I don’t promote him, then he might leave because he wants to make more money or his body’s wearing out and he wants to get off the tools. So often these decisions come from a place of fear rather than strategically what’s the best in the end of the day for the business because that’s what this decision is. It’s what’s best for the business, not necessarily what favours a certain person. So we got to be careful around the role that fear plays in this, don’t we?

Speaker 1 (09:08):

We do. And I think that’s where it becomes, if it is fear, that’s an intense emotion, right? So when you have these intense emotions and you don’t have a system in place, there’s no system for deciding, it’s just based on what you feel, what you’re seeing, what you think will happen as a result of time travelling down the path and saying, “Well, if I do this or I don’t do this, this is what the future looks like.” The default then kicks in to get out of the fear, “I’m going to make the decision. It’ll be made quickly without much thought.” You overlook a whole number of things that your system or your process or how you recruit usually would happen. And then you end up making this call feeling like, “Well, that’s good. I’ve locked away the fact that I’ve knocked out the possibility of that fearful thing happening,” but you’ve unlocked a whole lot of other stuff now that becomes the cost that you haven’t factored in.

(09:53):

I think that’s part two of what we want to talk about today is when it goes wrong, you don’t just lose a little bit. You might gain a little bit in terms of fear coming off, but you lose a lot more when the costs start stacking up and you put that person in the role.

Speaker 2 (10:06):

We do. And before we move into part two, I know personally when we did this at Pravar Group, it’s sharing around that fear element. I know that this was the decision that I know that I was faced when we restructured this role here at Pravar Group where we’d had a coach who’d been around there for eight years, and I know that you’d been only in the business a shorter amount of time and we were faced with that thing going, “Well, who do we give the role to?” I know that Gav Houston, who’s a partner in the business, we sat down together and went, “Well, let’s first look at the role and the responsibilities.” We had to consciously make that choice to be able to go, “Let’s just not automatically give it to that person. We’ve got to look for a square peg in a square hole, not a square peg in a round hole.” And that was a decision that we had to make where we didn’t give the operations manager role to someone who’d been longer standing in the business.

(11:05):

And you got the position because you’d had prior experience running a business. You knew what it take to operationally run a coaching business. We were kind of faced that with here in Pravar Group, weren’t we? There was the risk that some people might get their noses out of joint at the start. Some people may not have been happy around being managed by this newish guy, Dan. We were faced with this in Pravar, weren’t we?

Speaker 1 (11:30):

We were. I feel like I should almost leave the room while you talk about this situation. I’ve conflicted. Best decision you ever made. Correct. It was. All those things still come up. They’ve got to be navigated. So I think when you put the convenience of putting the person in and go, “Well, at least we’re not going to have to deal with all of that,” you then knock out the idea that you’re going to have to deal with, well, how does that person settle into the role? In my sense, it’s like if they can manage, that’s something that can be navigated. You manage around that. You still have the skillset, the ability to manage through the little bit of turbulence, if you like. When you first come into a role, everyone’s feeling someone out. Whoever goes into that role in whatever business, everyone’s watching going, “Are you sure?” And everyone’s sort of second guessing you as the person that made the call to go, “Is this going to work?

(12:15):

Let’s stress test this a little bit.” So I think that’s inevitable, but when you’ve got the right person in there, they should be able to navigate that. You should be able to support them. And you don’t end up having that thing where you know pretty quick when you second guess yourself and you’re like, “Oh shit, I think we pulled the wrong rein here.”

Speaker 2 (12:30):

Yeah. So I think in the end of the day, just to put a bow around part one is that it’s important to remember that don’t do it out of convenience. Don’t do it just because they’ve been the longest standing person in your team. You got to do what’s right.

Speaker 1 (12:45):

Or to avoid fear.

Speaker 2 (12:46):

To avoid fear. You got to do what’s right for the business, for where the business is going, not just to appease someone or doing it from a pace of fear. And that’s the most important thing to remember when you’re restructuring a business in this space.

Speaker 1 (12:59):

Yeah. And often that means slow down. So just take your time and have a real process and a thought through this and think twice is the punchline to that part one. Let’s get into part two then, hidden costs. The hidden cost when it goes wrong. I think there’s two of these and let’s talk to each of them. The first one is, cost one is that you lose your best tradesman. When we say your best tradesman, probably your most profitable tradesman, the rainmaker on site, if you like, there’s the sense of rainmaker in sales that brings in the clients, but the person that makes you money on site, you lose that when you pull them out and you pull the wrong rein there. That’s the first cost.

Speaker 2 (13:36):

It is. Leaning back on the real estate example that I used before, you’ve got a gun agent who’s making the biggest commissions and you take them out of the sales team and drop them into a manager position, all of a sudden all that commission falls out because yes, you have to backfill that person and they may not be as profitable or productive or a gun in that team like the other person. But the same thing happens in a trades business. You’ve got a really experienced tradesman who often knows the business inside and out. They might be running a crew or just a gun tradesman. All of a sudden you pull that person out and put them into a management position, then you’re losing your best person. Yes, you have to backfill them, but there’s a hit that the business takes to be able to get that other person up to speed.

Speaker 1 (14:26):

Yeah, the financial hit’s real. And then the other thing I think you get as well, which I think people underestimate is the standards and what that person was doing, if they are the gun and they are on site, they’re doing a great job, people will look up to me. Your apprentices are watching that. They’re the standard. They’re the benchmark. They’re the way we do things around here. You’re taking a real cultural hit on site when you pull that person out at the wrong time or the wrong person. Yeah. Big one. So cost too. So I think that’s a bit obvious. I mean, when you do that, you’re going to have a hole, you’ve got to fill it, all those sort of things. But then look at the second hidden cost, if you like, is when you gain, what do you gain out of this? So you lose your trademen, you gain.

(15:06):

It sounds awful, but it’s true. You gain your worst possible manager. And I mean that in the sense that let’s start off with the most obvious thing. They just manage the way they do a job. That’s all they know. They’re really good at it. So they rely on their skills and their strengths and go, “Well, it worked for me. I’m just going to do more of that and see if I can make that work.” So they just do it themselves, all those sort of things that come with it. Just talk about that a little bit.

Speaker 2 (15:29):

Yeah. This is where you promote someone who’s a good tradesman, but you’ve got to remember their mindset, their identity, their mentality is a doer, not a manager. And they’ve never often been trained in managing people, managing situations, managing the jobs. They might be a gun running one jobs, but now they’ve got to concurrently run multiple jobs and multiple crews and multiple people. Then they’re sitting in the office and they feel like a fish out of water because now they’ve got to use email and calendars and liaise with sub-trades and coordinate jobs and deal with margin and pricing and all these things that they’re just like, “Holy shit, this is so foreign to me.” They go from being a gun at their trade to sucking in management. It’s a big step because a lot of people get into the trade because they hate the office environment, but here they are in this environment that they probably.

(16:29):

It’s almost like a fantasy that they’re bought into going, “How good is this? I’m going to become a manager.” But then they get in there and they’re like, “Whoa, I am just feeling like a huge fish out of water.”

Speaker 1 (16:39):

Yeah, it is. And I think what compounds the problem there is when they haven’t got support or training in place. They’re not trained, they’re not onboarded well into the role. Everyone’s busy. I brought them in because shit, I was drowning as the owner of the business and all those sort of things. So I needed someone. I bring them in and say, “All right, you go for it. You know how things run around here.” And they’re just left to their own devices, which then compounds that exact problem.

Speaker 2 (17:02):

Yeah, it is. And clients scoffing us when we say, “Well, when you’re bringing in an admin person, that’s like a few months to recruit. And then you’re looking at six to 12 months to train, delegate and get them up to speed.” With an operational person, it’s like a 12 to 18 month journey. And the biggest mistake that so many people make is they go, “Oh, how good is Johnny? Best tradesman. Let’s bring him in as a PM.” Bang, drop him in the role and then go, “There you go, Johnny. Now start managing.” Johnny’s like, “Oh, okay.” Johnny does the best that he can with what he’s got at the time. If he hasn’t been trained and developed and given the skills and supported and nurtured to be able to succeed in that role, no wonder he’s going to suck and no wonder he’s probably going to hate it and runs the risk of either the margin deteriorating, the business going backwards, or he just gets the shits and leaves because he doesn’t feel like he’s got the support and hasn’t been set up to succeed in the end of the day.

Speaker 1 (17:59):

Yeah. The other one, of course, is that they get that sense of, “Well, I’m watching things from afar. I can see where things are going wrong. It’s just going to be faster if I do it myself.” And again, out of best intentions, they almost pull themselves out of the role and end up being sucked back onto side or into problems in their spot fires and they get to put on what we call their Superman cape and step back in and be the hero of the day going on that idea of it’s just faster. I’m the best one to do it. I’ll just do it myself.

Speaker 2 (18:26):

Yeah. And before we get into an example where we can talk about a client example around where this hasn’t gone right.

Speaker 1 (18:32):

We can talk about hundreds of them.

Speaker 2 (18:35):

I personally, this is where I love our emerging managers programme and our merging managers programme is a programme we run for pure clients, so it’s not available to the marketplace. And I really love that’s why we run it, because what we’ve done is taken all the best management training from our leverage programme and parts of our lifestyle programme, and we coach our clients’ managers to be better managers. And I know you spearhead that programme because you’ve got a real skillset and an art around building high performing teams, but that’s why that program’s so important, isn’t it?

Speaker 1 (19:10):

It really is. I mean, we just talked about best intentions of the manager coming into the role. The owner’s got the best intentions too. No one promotes someone on the basis that want to see this fall flat on its face and go nowhere. But being able to get proper training on things that everyone takes for granted in terms of prioritisation, communication, how do you delegate? How do you deal with just the volume of information that’s coming to you now? How do you do all that sort of stuff? So having something structured that people can lean on and put their managers through to have the content and the skillset developed, the context always comes from the owner and the business, but the ability to have that training is invaluable, I think. And we’re seeing those results when guys do go through it, that they stick with the role.

(19:54):

They start to feel like they do belong in the role. They go through that apprenticeship in a structured way. Makes a big difference.

Speaker 2 (20:00):

It does. If you’re listening here today, the biggest mistake that you can make in this process is not setting up your managers to succeed in this role. You’ve got to think around how long it took you to transition off the tools and get into the office and find your feet and develop the skills and the capability to succeed in this role. And you’re expecting your manager who’s not an owner of the business, they’re an employee, to succeed from day one and you don’t develop them. That’s not great leadership in the end of the day because we see it across with our clients. It sometimes takes them two to three years to make that transition or longer to be able to get off the tools, shift their identity and develop the skill sets from being a good tradesman to becoming a great manager. So that takes years for that process, you’re expecting a manager inside your business to do it like that.

(20:54):

Come on, give me a break. And that’s why this process is super important is it’s not the go-to just to choose your best tradie, plunk them in the role and hope they make it work. It’s got to be a well thought out, well-considered process that you go through to be able to go, what’s the role, what’s the responsibilities, and who is the best person? It’s not always your longest term employee. You got to think who’s the best, then you’ve got to make sure you develop them and train them over a long term to make sure they succeed in that position.

Speaker 1 (21:25):

Yeah nice. Really good. I think the structure and the story that we’ve told is really good. You said you had a client example you wanted to tell. Do you want to give us the client example and maybe we’ll have a talk around a couple of things you should be looking for just to get guys started?

Speaker 2 (21:40):

Yeah. The example of someone around this that comes to mind is Jamie who runs a trades business here in Vic, and he went through the process where he did promote one of his good guys into the role. And this is a story where you can still follow the right process and it still doesn’t work out. Jamie did this. He clarified the role, did the PD, looked from within, transitioned the bloke, part billable, part non-billable to start, really took his time. In the end of the day, he did take his best tradesman out. That was because he was warranted, put him in the office. There were signs early on with red flags where it wasn’t working and he persevered and persevered and persevered and it just got to the point where this bloke’s like, “I’m not cut out for this. I’m not enjoying it.” But then he was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

(22:32):

He didn’t want to take a pay cut. He didn’t want to feel like he was getting demoted back into the field, and he ended up losing this bloke. Over a period of time, he lost his best tradesman out of the field. He put him into the position, he lost him out of there as well outside of the business, and there was this big hole in both areas. So it just shows that sometimes you can still follow the right process and still lose out in the end of the day. But that was a lesson for Jamie. He just went back to the drawing board and went, “Well, right, let’s see what we can do differently next time.” Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:07):

And everyone will be destined to do that. You’re going to repeat the process if you get it wrong. We see that all the time. We had another client we spoke to even yesterday who was telling us the same story that they had similar. It was like their third go round before they got that role right. Lo and behold, it wasn’t the best tradie that ended up taking the role and really finding their feet in it. He found and Jamie eventually found they learned that lesson, but they knew what to look for over time. I think today, rather than finish with a challenge, let’s go through some of those things that you need to take away as the punchline, if you like, of what should you be looking for to avoid making that mistake in the first instance. For me, the first one, you’ve got to have someone that can plan and communicate well.

(23:50):

If you haven’t got that, then you’re going to struggle with whoever you put into that role.

Speaker 2 (23:55):

Yeah, for sure. It’s not just about being able to run one job. It’s the ability to have the awareness to run multiple jobs, multiple crews, multiple guys, the ability to manage a schedule. It’s no longer just doing the job. They’ve got to be able to transition to managing a job and managing people to get the job done. So you’re looking for that person, and this is part three around who do we give the nod to? It’s the person who’s got the ability to plan and manage and schedule and coordinate, which is a completely different skillset just to them being a good tradie.

Speaker 1 (24:32):

It’s almost like you’ve got to go into it with, can they get a job done? Can they be responsible for the delivery of the job almost with their hands tied behind their back? They can’t pick up a tool. They’re stuck where they are in the office doing this. I say stuck in the nicest possible way, but they’re in the office doing it hands behind their back. All they’ve got is their ability to influence, communicate, set the team up for success, plan it well, but they’re not allowed to be involved hands-on on the site to pick up hammers and tools and try and get the job done. That’s not their role. So thinking about it that way, it sort of gives you the next layer of, is that really what this person needs to be able to do? The answer is yes.

Speaker 2 (25:12):

Yeah. And it’s a higher level of responsibility, and with that responsibility obviously comes pay, but it’s the responsibility to be responsible for execution of jobs, outcomes, hitting margin targets, and delivery the job, keeping customers happy, keeping the business running and operating well and being responsible if you as the owner decide to go on holidays. This role is not just a nicety where it’s like, oh, I’m in the office being a project manager. It’s like, no, you’re now responsible for project managing or maintenance supervising. It’s a high level of responsibility. They’ve got to be willing to take on and be responsible for in the end of the day. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:50):

The other one I think as well, and it’s the one I stress a lot to clients when we do this, but there’s nothing that says everyone has to be paid the same. If you’ve got an absolute jet on the tools who’s making you a lot of money and adding a lot of value to your business financially, pay them what they’re worth. Don’t try and keep everyone happy families in terms of pay. It can still be confidential. It doesn’t need to be bandied around the place, but at the same time, pay and recognise what you’ve got in a gun tradesman if that’s what you need to do. Don’t sort of go, “Well, I can’t possibly pay them because I’m going to get everyone else’s nose out of joint and they need to have more responsibility to even warrant getting that sort of money.” You’ve got to be willing to recognise that you do pay more for great people.

Speaker 2 (26:34):

So these are the things you got to look for. And in the end of the day, it’s just so important that it comes back to this principle that we teach in coaching all the time. It’s position first, person second. You don’t just grab the first person or your best tradie and drop them in the role and then work it out from there. You’ve got to strategically take a step back and go, “Well, what is the position? What’s the role? What’s the responsibility? What are the behaviours? What’s the attributes? What’s the attitude we’re looking for for the person and what does success look like for the role?” Then you go to the person and then that helps to determine who is going to be the best person. Then you can look within your team to be able to go, “Well, who in the team and from an objective manner fits that role?” So it’s always position first, person second.

(27:20):

And a lot of trades guys get that the wrong way about where they go person first, position second. So make sure you do it in the right order. And if you do that, then that’s what’s going to ensure that you set yourself up to be able to get this process right. Now where we’ve been today is part one was around why this promotion keeps happening on autopilot. We spoke around that, around why this naturally happens. Part two was about the second hidden cost, the two hidden costs that we went through about losing your best tradesman and then gaining your worst manager. And part three was around, well, how do you decide who gets the nods? And that’s where we just finished there around who does get that nod. So Dan, we’ve covered a lot of ground today unpacking those three elements to this process, haven’t we?

(28:02):

Yeah, we have. I mean, and there’s a lot around this. We can talk recruitment, we can talk remuneration, we can talk training for managers, all of those things. I think the main thing we’ve tried to do today is just try and put the brakes on this idea that the best tradie automatically is the first one to be looked at for a management role or coming into that operational side of the business. So that’s the key today. If we’ve succeeded in getting you to stop and have a think about that in a bit different, whether you’re making a decision now or you’ve just made one, unfortunately. But if we get you to think about it that way, then that’s job done for this particular episode.

(28:37):

It is. And this is actually a bigger decision than you realise because when you’re at that point in business where you’re around the two-ish million dollar mark and you’re restructuring to get to the next level, there’s a real cost that can come with getting this wrong. And so if this episode has really hit the mark with you where you’re in that position where it’s like, “Yeah, I’ve made that mistake and I’m trying to unravel it at the moment,” or you’re looking forward over the next couple of months going, “Actually, we really need to be able to get this person into the business and into the operations and get this structure right,” then jump across to strategysession.com.au, fill out the form, book in a time that suits you, and let’s have a look at your business around where you’re at, where you’re trying to go, and let’s pull apart your operational structure so we can give you a bit of advice around what that structure looks like and who might be the best person to put into that role and set you up for success.

(29:32):

Hope you’ve really enjoyed today’s episode. We’ve enjoyed talking through it with you and yeah, we’re really looking forward to coming back to you with another episode of The Trade Den very shortly. Until then, take care.See

Speaker 1 (29:42):

See you soon.