Episode 142 Podcast Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Sometimes losing a job is the biggest blessing in disguise. You never had the job in the first place. It was never yours to win or lose anyway. This is your ability where if you are getting beaten, let it go. But if you can learn from it or rescue it or have the ability to move through it, then take that and get better because pricing work and quoting jobs, it’s never a one and done thing. You’ve always got to keep getting better at this process the longer you’re in business. G’day everyone. Rob Kropp and Dan Stones here from Pravar Group and welcome back to another episode of The Trade Den. Good to have you back, Dan. How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:40):

Hi everyone. Hi Rob. Good to be back. Interesting one today, isn’t it? I think this idea of losing jobs and losing anything hurts. We all get that. A quote that you put time into, like you said, it’s gone. You don’t get that time back and it accounted for at the end of the day what you think is nothing. But I think there’s that element of everyone thinks it sucks to lose anything, or at least I know we do. And then there’s the idea of, but hey, there’s some constraints here. A pipeline’s thin and watching work disappear or not materialise, that really starts to go, well, hang on, what’s really going on here? This is madness. Something’s got to change.

Speaker 1 (01:16):

Yeah. Especially when you’re working on the time you spend pulling together a quote. I think a lot of people underestimate the time required to actually get a quote pulled together. And sometimes, especially on the bigger projects, there could be hours and hours of not just quoting the job, but it’s travelling there, measuring up, talking to the potential customer, going back to the office, quoting it up, liaising with suppliers. There could be hours or days or if it’s a really big project, it could be weeks pulling together that. And then when you hear that someone’s undercut you by 10%, 20% or potentially even 40%, you’re just like, “Man, what am I doing wrong? And Jesus, there goes all that time. I’m never going to get back.” So yeah, it stings and especially if your pipeline’s empty.

Speaker 2 (02:04):

Yeah. The other thing is, I think this idea, even if you said, and it just hit me then, this idea of I’ve lost the quote. You never had the job in the first place. You haven’t really lost anything. And even then if you look at it that way, you think about, well, who actually won it? Rather than me just losing and it’s all about me. But think about who actually wins the job. That also sort of hits different.

Speaker 1 (02:24):

Yeah. And sometimes it’s like, yes, good, they’ve got it. But other times you’re like, man, they’ve got it. How come that bloke gets it and I don’t? Or Jesus, what’s happening over there that I don’t? And that’s where a lot of doubt can come in and you can question a lot of stuff for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:40):

Yeah. No, there’s one thing I think we need to cover up before we get into it. I’ll cover off what we’re going to do today. But when we talk about this, this is quotes doing their job when we start talking about this later on. The idea is that you’ve got confidence in your pricing already. And I think that’s a big thing. You might be out legitimately. And that can happen where you’ve just totally blown it and that can be the thing where your price is wrong. But what we’re really trying to address today is more on the side of, you know your pricing’s in the ballpark. You’ve got some confidence in it. You’re not just plucking prices out of your ass. It’s some work gone into your pricing already to start with. I think that’s important to say today.

Speaker 1 (03:16):

Yeah, you’re right. If you are listening today and you are a little bit unsure around your pricing, then we did do some episodes very early in the piece in episodes 23, 24 and 25 around pricing. So if you haven’t gone back and listened to them, make sure you go back and listen to them around the pricing pyramid and really understand the difference between markup and margin and how to really price a job correctly. But you’re right, Dan, this is assuming that you’ve got absolute confidence in your pricing, but you still get beaten on price. And that’s what really today is all about, isn’t it?

Speaker 2 (03:49):

Yeah, it is. So what we’re going to cover off is not so much, well, how should I price or anything like that. As you said, go back and listen to those other episodes. Enjoy the early days of us and the show. But anyway, the three things we’re going to cover off today and what we want to explore is firstly, what’s the role of a quote? Let’s really understand that because it’s important. Secondly, there’s a thing called the conversion trap, and we’re going to pull that apart for you and explain the conversion trap and how you can avoid it. And the third is practising a certain mentality that we call win or learn. And this is a really good opportunity to do that. And you’ll see the power of it as we go through that third piece of today. So let’s start on the role of a quote.

(04:30):

And what we want to talk about is your quote is a filter. And when you lose jobs on price again with the confidence that you know your pricing’s in the ballpark, that’s your filter doing its job. It’s working. So I think if you look at your quotes as filters, then they’re doing their job if you’re losing on that price.

Speaker 1 (04:51):

Yeah. When someone says, “Hey mate, I’ve gone with someone cheaper,” what it’s actually telling you is that the decision making process for that customer, their criteria, their number one criteria is price. And there are plenty of people out there who just purely make their decisions based on price and price alone. But I don’t know about you, Dan, but in my experience, when someone makes a decision based on price, it’s often a red flag because you know what that type of customer’s like. They’re going to challenge every variation. They’re going to challenge every decision. They’re going to push back on invoices. That’s their decision-making criteria. And if they’re saying, “Well, we’ve got someone cheaper than you,” sometimes it can be a blessing in disguise.

Speaker 2 (05:37):

Yeah, it does. And you know based on the market you’re in, you know what’s going on, how that looks, how that sounds. And if you’re positioning yourself as someone who’s, we deal with great customers, we love the customers we work with, all your messages around premium and pricing and our finishes and all of that sort of stuff. If you’re getting that pricing feedback, then it is a red flag. We’re in the wrong pool here. We’re not in the right spot. These aren’t going to be good customers for us. And I think now the other thing to do is look at it as going, well, whoever won it now owns that problem. There is a problem. If it is a red flag, then someone’s now holding onto the red flag and it’s theirs to deal with.

Speaker 1 (06:16):

It’s a real danger, isn’t it? And sometimes we hear with clients where it’s like, oh man, I just got smashed on my price by 20% or 30%. And then a client, they drop their bottom lip for a little bit, but then after a little while they’re like, actually, you know what? They can have that customer and they can have that shit job and it has got hairs all over it. And now that competitor now has to hold onto that red flag of that customer. And you know what? It’s a good thing, but you’re right, that’s your quote doing its job. When you stand by your price, you’ve got confidence in your cost base, you know that you’ve got a margin target that you have to hit to be able to make your business viable and you go into a job with complete confidence that you’ve got your quote comparing apples with apples with their quote as per the scope and you still get smashed on price and the customer chooses them over you, then you’ve put your best foot forward.

(07:11):

And you’ve got to have confidence with that. And we’re going to talk about it in a bit, but you don’t want to win every job. And if you lose that job based on a pricing scenario, then sometimes it works out for the best. And I’m sure that, Dan, we’ve seen plenty of situations around that, haven’t we?

Speaker 2 (07:26):

Yeah, it does. And it never ceases to surprise me how quickly guys lose confidence in their pricing. It’s such a short. It could be one quote and all of a sudden the whole world’s shifted and my confidence is down and all this sort of stuff happens. So you’re right, having a really good think about the idea of who wins it, the skinny margins, the difficulties, the loyalty of how many jobs are you going to get from this person, it’s going to be a one and done. All of that stuff has to be remembered when you get that initial, “Hey mate, we’ve gone with someone else.” I think the other thing to talk to is the different markets that we deal with. A business to consumer, a B2C market versus a B2B, there’s probably some expectation in terms of where price sits in the scheme for the people that are buying your services and what you’re doing.

Speaker 1 (08:14):

Yeah, definitely. When you’re in the B2C market, like in the service maintenance, dealing with moms and dads or whatever it is, the nature of that business is it’s speed to lead. As soon as a lead comes through, it’s bang, it’s your ability to stay on top of that lead. And then it’s call, call. It’s almost like it’s very transactional in nature. It’s about getting to the lead, getting a quote out the door and following up and following up and following up again. It’s that transactional nature. So there is going to be a conversion element to it. Now when you’re in the B2B game, especially when you’re in dealing with a lot of online estimation based estimate software or programmes like estimate one and all those types of things, you’ve got to accept that it is literally a game of conversion rate and it’s going to be low conversion rates where you’re talking down at like 10%, 15% max.

(09:16):

Yeah, you’re bidding for work essentially. So if you’re bidding and that’s what it is, it’s low conversion. You’re not going to get a chance to put your best foot forward. You get to put your best price forward. So I think you’ve got to say that in that space in B2B, you’re probably sitting in that same level as the B2C that we just talked about.

(09:35):

Correct. And then when you’re in the B2B game and you’re dealing with customers who, like you’re dealing with a builder, for example, who they do value expertise, they value quality and consistency and reliability and their ability to reduce risk and they value a relationship, then the nature of that game is very different. It’s repeat business. You can be more expensive than someone else who’s quoted that job, but you can still win it even though you’re more expensive because the criteria for decision making might be different.

Speaker 2 (10:09):

Yeah. So I think to sum this first little bit up, it’s be realistic in your response to losing. So I think that’s got to be the message. Understand the market you’re in, understand who’s won it, understand what that means, and then go from there. And the next thing to do, I think in terms of building this out is talking through this idea of a conversion trap because losing quotes, the initial hit is rejection. You haven’t won, you’ve lost, fine. Feels bad. But there’s another side to this and the conversion trap when we talk about it is the number that’s even more scarier is if you’re winning every quote. For me, that’s a worse red flag almost. If you’re winning every single job hands down and you’re sitting there going, “Have a look at my conversion rate. I’m way up there. I’m 99% of jobs. I win everything I go into.” If you are winning everything, there’s a pretty big signal there that you probably need to have a look at your prices.

Speaker 1 (11:05):

Correct. And what it tells me is that, and we see this with clients where they are winning a lot of work and what it means is they’re leaving a lot of margin on the table and you still got the ability. The cost base of doing that job is still the same, but what you’re missing out on is margin and you could easily put your prices up by 5%, 10%, 15% and your conversion rate could come down slightly, but you’ll be so much further ahead because of the margin you’re making up by increasing your prices. So you’re right, if we meet a client and they’re winning a lot of work and not getting a lot of pushbacks on their quotes, then it’s a bigger problem, isn’t it?

Speaker 2 (11:47):

It is. And you rarely hear. If you lose a job because of price, you’ll always hear, “Hey, you were just too expensive.” I don’t know how many people get told if they’re doing this and their conversion’s really high, “Hey, we’ve gone with you because you’re the cheapest.” You never get that feedback. So you just assume you’re on the money, you’re winning, you’re doing it because of all this stuff. But you might be behind the scenes, you might be the very cheapest in the pool and you are just being thrown work, but you end up losing money, you end up playing at that bottom of the barrel. So it’s a real trap that you’ve got to be aware of if you don’t have, again, those wits about you around, “Well, why am I winning as opposed to why am I losing?” It’s a different question. Now, the next thing that I want to cover off as well, because as much as we talk about this, there’s going to be people listening that are going to be screaming at their, whatever it is, their phone or their car speakers.

(12:38):

But I need the work, Rob. You don’t understand. The work’s got to come and that’s the rebuttal that we hear is, “But I need the work.” How would you play that out or how do you play that out when we hear it from clients all the time?

Speaker 1 (12:51):

It’s a real scenario when you are looking down the barrel of a pipeline that’s looking really lean and you are like, “Shit, where am I going to send my guys this week? Or next month is looking like we’re off a cliff next month.” And you’re right, it’s that thing where it’s like, “I’ve got to get this work.” And the risk is then is that you get caught in this cycle where you drop your pants, you win work, but then you’re caught in the trap of low margin jobs. You’ve done it, you’ve bought the job to keep you guys busy, but then it looks good from a revenue point of view, but the margin’s not there. You’ve just wiped out your margin and then the pressure’s on to deliver the job at a higher standard with really low margins. And this is where cashflow crunches come in.

(13:40):

There’s risks associated. What happens if you miss something and there’s no fat in the job to be able to cover it? Revenue’s great, margin’s horrible, and this is what leads to a downward spiral from a cashflow point of view.

Speaker 2 (13:52):

Yeah. Let’s be clear, those jobs don’t just make you no money whether margins crap or whatever. It robs you of ever getting back that margin again. The capacity’s gone. The guys are going to be busy. Great. They’re going to be busy making no money. How long for? Do you feel good about. We’re going to be there for a month or whatever it might be making no money, but we can’t correct that for another month. So it goes on and on and on. So this becomes that sort of perpetual thing where the capacity that you could have sold at good margin is gone forever. So it’s almost like a double hit.

Speaker 1 (14:25):

It is. And we saw this during the pandemic, you and I both in Victoria, we saw this a lot in Victoria with all the shutdowns we went through where there are a lot of trades businesses just dropping their pants, buying work, and it just became a race to the bottom. And then it felt good because they filled their pipelines with work, but that just then wiped out those people and they filled their pipeline of 3, 6, 9, 12 months in advance. But their financial year would’ve just been completely shot. And yeah, they were busy, they kept all their guys with jobs and all those types of things. But when you say yes to a shit job, you’re saying no to an opportunity that could be around the corner. And it becomes a dangerous cycle, doesn’t it? Because then once you’re in that habit of lower margin work or the customer starts to expect that price, it’s sometimes very hard to claw your way out of it, isn’t it?

Speaker 2 (15:20):

It is. And I think this is the idea, and we never go into this. We haven’t covered it off. I think we did an episode on the true cost of discounting, but we’ll never say that your answer is to get more cheaper jobs. Cheaper jobs isn’t going to be the way you get through this. I think our default if the pipeline’s generally thin is, hey, you got to get your ass out there and do more selling, more business development. More quotes need to go out the door, not just win more cheaper jobs. That’s the real secret to this. It’s got to be more at the right price and finding those customers that will pay the margin you want to get. It’s a tougher road in a lot of ways.You could just drop your pants, but it’s never the way out of it long term.

Speaker 1 (16:02):

That was episode 81 if you haven’t listened to that and you want to understand the real cost of discounting. And you’re right, Dan, it’s like most business owners do not understand the real cost of discounting because your cost base is the same to deliver that job, but what you’re doing is completely wiping out your margin that you need in your business to be viable. So it’s about hustling harder and getting out there and selling your way through the problem. And one of my favourite quotes is that sales cures all. Sales cures everything. And so if you’ve got the ability, if you’re looking staring down the barrel of a thin pipeline, don’t get caught in the discounting trap. Just get focused on selling good quality work and the right work for the right customers at the right margin and put your focus on BD and that’s your way through this process.

Speaker 2 (16:57):

Yeah. And as much as people have that fear of losing and don’t like that word applying to them, the next thing I think as well that we’ve got to talk about is guys value being busy. We hear it all the time to keep my guys busy. We’re busy. It’s good if we’re busy. Do you want to be busy or do you want to be profitable at the end of the day as a business owner? You’ve got to keep that in mind at all times. Am I just trying to be busy and filling in gaps just to be busy’s sake or am I still committed to being profitable? And that’s where I think the real realisations and the strategic thinking comes into as opposed to just that emotional knee jerk reaction, this is a bit uncomfortable. I don’t like it. I have to have something to keep me busy.

Speaker 1 (17:38):

We see this a little bit with clients sometimes where they have real purple patches and they build out their structure and they grow and expand and they build their ground crews and their operational structure. But if your business is genuinely hit a run rate that it’s not as healthy, sometimes you’ve got to unwind that structure instead of being really busy and making no money. Sometimes you’ve got to wind back that structure the way that you wound it up and right size your business. We talk about that in coaching. You got to right size your business to meet the business where the market is at the moment. If you are doing everything you can to put your best foot forward and quoting lots of work and having confidence in your pricing and charging the right margin, but if you’re still having a dip in your pipeline or you’re not progressing like you want, it’s okay to be able to wind back your structure, wind back your run rate, wind back the structure that you built, right size it, maintain profitability and wind it back up again.

(18:36):

Business is not a build and one and done thing. Sometimes you’ve got to flex up and flex down depending on what is going on in the market or what’s going on in your business at the time.

Speaker 2 (18:45):

Yeah. Right sizing is a hugely underrated strategy for business owners, I think, maintaining that right size for what you’re doing. Let’s move to this next thing, which is at the end of the day, do you just ignore losses? I don’t want it to sound like, hopefully it doesn’t come across this way. We don’t want to sound like it’s like, well, just dust yourself off, carry on and just sell more. That’s not the message. And I said at the beginning, what we’re going to talk through is practising  a win or learn mentality. So when it comes to what do you do in the face of the rejection, the loss, “Hey mate, we’ve gone with someone cheaper,” there is a way to respond to that that is going to help you long term and it is to practise this win or learn mentality. And what we mean by that, we’re going to use three words here, accept, rescue, or learn, but let’s talk through each of them.

(19:31):

So sometimes at the end of the day, you’ve just got to accept that some people are going to go out there and buy jobs. They are going to go out there because they think it’s, “I’d rather be busy than not busy. I’m desperate. I need the cash,” whatever it is. And some people just accept the fact that some people are going to price things ridiculously. It doesn’t mean that they’re right. It just means that they’ve gone cheap.

Speaker 1 (19:52):

Yeah, it’s an acceptance. And you know this, you know when you’ve put a quote forward and someone is like, “You’ve quoted a hundred grand and you have built out all your labour hours, your labour costings, your material quantity, material cost, and all the other incidentals, and you got your cost base right. And then you’ve gone, okay, add my margin on top and I’ve come to a hundred grand.” And someone comes in at 60 grand and you’re like, “How are they doing that at 60 grand when that’s what it actually costs me to deliver the job?” You just know deep down they’ve bought that job or they’ve completely balls it up hoping that they’ll come in cheap and get it on variations down the line. And if you’re doing work for a builder and they go with that tradie who’s going to accept it at 60 grand, you’ve just got to be able to go, “Mate, you have it. You have that because you know that that builder is going to cop it in variations down the line and they’re going to have to pay a hundred grand anyway, or that tradie will go out of business in the next six to 12 months because it’s not sustainable.” So sometimes you’ve just got to be able to go, “You know what? Have it. If you’re that desperate for it, go for it. I’ll just go and focus on something else.”

Speaker 2 (21:04):

Yeah, for sure. The next one is to attempt to rescue. So this is about if you know a competitor’s balls it up, we can go in and attempt to rescue the job if we firmly believe in it. There’s some conditions around that.

Speaker 1 (21:20):

A great example of a client right now was talking about this in his wins and learnings from the week of our Monday morning momentum process, which is looking at the week back and looking forward and sharing your wins and all those types of things. That’s our Monday morning momentum process. And this client’s going through where he’s a sparky doing work for builders and he was confident in his pricing. He’d done a lot of work in coaching to get confidence in it and someone came in way cheaper. And especially when you are in the B2B game in not necessarily the B2C game and not necessarily the B2B game where it’s purely just volume transactional, it’s important to be able to have good quality relationships with your customers because what you ultimately want to be able to do is get a seat back at the negotiation table.

(22:11):

And this is what Joel was able to do. He went back to his builder and he’s like, “Mate, can we have a conversation around this and can we talk a bit about my quote, our inclusions, our exclusions, what we priced, our specs for materials and all those types of things?” And he did that and he was able to have a good conversation with the builder and not bag the other Sparky who priced it, but then it was his ability to be almost, in a subtle way, pick his quote to pieces and show that Joel had actually priced his correctly, wasn’t it?

Speaker 2 (22:48):

Yeah. The idea when you do that and you go for the rescue is not to sit there and say, you said to seat at the negotiation table, think about that table there, but you’re sitting on the same side as your customer, right? You want to be seen as a valued person helping them make a right decision as opposed to going, “Hey, this guy sucks or I’ll be a little bit more expensive than them because…” You want to be sitting on the same side as the competitors. You want to be sitting with your customer or the person you’ve got the relationship with and acting in their best interest as you paint the picture of why you should be looking at these elements of the quote and why mine’s this way. But you do it from that side, you get a much better response.

Speaker 1 (23:27):

Correct. So if you’re a tradie working for a builder and you know that that builder’s got three prices or two prices, whatever it is, and they come back to you and give you feedback where they’re like, “Hey mate, thanks for getting your pricing. Just letting you know that we’ve got two other guys that are cheaper than you and you are more expensive and we trust you, we’ve worked with you before and we love your quality and your reliability.” You just got to ask the question to be able to go, “Mate, can we come in? Can we sit down? Can we talk through my price? Can we talk through my quote and I can show you what we’ve included and excluded? And can we have an honest conversation around making sure we’re comparing apples with apples?” And that’s the most important thing you can do because if that takes you two hours to be able to drive there, sit down with them for an hour and get home, maybe even a couple more extra hours, but if you invest that time, you might have the ability to rescue that job because you’re highlighting to that builder and you’re leaning into that relationship that you’ve got with them over that period of time to show them that you can value engineer the job or you’ve got the ability to compare apples with apples or really meet them with where they’re trying to be and get some insight into that.

(24:35):

So there’s definitely opportunities where you don’t want to just walk away from it, you want to actually rescue that job if you know that you’ve got the ability to do so.

Speaker 2 (24:45):

Yeah. You can also do this in B2C, you can do it, but the rescue comes in different way. You’re not going to have two hours. You’re going to be able to drive. They don’t really give us stuff. But what you can do is ask a simple question to see if there’s a conversation to be had. If there’s not, accept it, move on would be where we’d go. But in B2C land, it’s just, can I ask you compared to who or what? So if someone’s like, “Hey mate, we’re going with someone who’s cheaper or we’ve gone with someone else or you’re too expensive,” that’s usually what you get. You’re just too expensive. “Compared to who or what? Can I just ask that question? Because I understand that, maybe I can help you. “And some people might go,” Well, explain, “and then you’ve got a chance to have a conversation.

(25:21):

Other people will go,” Doesn’t matter. “And then you know you’ve just got to accept it and move on. So you can rescue in B2C as well. It’s quicker and it’s a little bit more hit and miss, but you’ll know straight away if you’ve got a chance. The last one we want to talk about is learn, and this is the learn mentality. So sometimes you’ve got to learn where you’re falling short and you’ve got some work to do. There’s some things that you’ve missed. There’s something the way you’re presenting, there’s something that comes across. So you’ve got to then sort of look for what are the lessons from this and really make sure that you’re not glossing over the information and feedback you’re getting when you get this idea of, hey, we’ve gone with someone else.

Speaker 1 (25:58):

Yeah, because every time you lose a job, that’s feedback. And as we spoke around before, every time you win a job, it’s feedback as well because if you are winning a lot of work, that’s feedback. But if you’re losing work and you’ve got to ask the question, the most important question you can ask around if you’ve lost a job, you’ve just got to go, help me understand where we fell short and what made you go with someone else over us. And they won’t always tell you, but always ask the question because it could be price related. It could be the value proposition within there. It could be that the way you just presented the quote was just not great. It could be they really didn’t understand the inclusions versus exclusions and the clarification around scope, or it could have just been that you were just late or tardy or didn’t present well or whatever it is.

(26:52):

Get the feedback because if you can understand what the feedback is and also get to the next layer around who won that job, you can then start to see what your competitors are doing, why are they beating you and why are you missing out on certain things? And Dan, it gives them a little bit of an understanding from a sales perspective or a pricing perspective what they can do differently. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:18):

I think that’s almost like a mandatory thing as part of your sales process. You get the answer, but then follow it up with, “Hey, just let me ask the question.” Get more feedback. Don’t just rely on the initial, “Hey, we’re out of it.” But yeah, put it in as part of your sales process. We get the answer, we close it out, but we close it out with that question. Help us understand so we can be better next time, what’s there? So it’s always going to that next job, that next quote that you’re looking after that you get better and better as you go.

Speaker 1 (27:50):

I like the ground that we’ve covered today because I think the natural reaction is it’s like, “Ugh, I just lost a job.” And sometimes losing a job is the biggest blessing in disguise. And that’s what today’s episode has been all about where if someone has beaten you purely based on price, good, let it go. Just let it go and move on. It gives you insight into the customer’s buying decision criteria. And it could be a blessing in disguise because it’s a red flag that you just happen to avoid. It could mean that you’ve got the ability to be able to learn from it, accept it or rescue it if you can. And so today’s really been a bit about where you never had the job in the first place. It was never yours to win or lose anyway. This is your ability where if you are getting beaten, let it go.

(28:46):

But if you can learn from it or rescue it or have the ability to move through it, then take that and get better because Dan, pricing work and quoting jobs, it’s never a one and done thing. You’ve always got to keep getting better at this process the longer you’re in business, yeah?

Speaker 2 (29:01):

Yeah. Everything’s changing all the time. That’s why it’s called pricing dynamics. It’s dynamic. It shifts, it changes. You’ve got to be a student of this and you’ve got to get really good at playing the game.

Speaker 1 (29:13):

If you are in that position where you are sick of losing work, and that could be because you don’t have confidence in your pricing or you don’t have confidence in your sales process, or worse yet you are winning every quote that goes out the door, that could be a bigger issue, and you’re looking at a second opinion around how you can get better at this process, then jump across to strategysession.com.au, fill out the application form, book in a time that suits, and let’s have a conversation around your pricing margin, markup versus margin, your sales process and where you sit and where you’re trying to go. And let’s pull it all apart and see if we can help put a bit of a plan in place to be able to help you win better work at the right margin so you can actually build a business that makes better money for you.

(29:57):

Hopefully you’ve enjoyed today’s episode and Yeah, really looking forward to coming back to you with another episode here on The Trade Den again shortly. Until then, take care.

Speaker 2 (30:05):

See you soon.