Episode 27 Podcast Transcript
Speaker 1 (00:00:00):
Alcohol for me is I know when to say no, and that’s the best thing that’s come out of my journey over the last number of years. Hi everyone. Rob Kropp here and welcome back to another episode of The Trade Den, good to have you back Dan. How’s things?
Speaker 2 (00:00:19):
Always good to be here? Things are going well. Very busy time and coaching when I like to use that word, but very productive time for everyone in the group and yeah, plenty happening.
Speaker 1 (00:00:31):
Good stuff. I know about you, but I’m really looking forward to today’s episode. I’ve been wanting to do this episode for a very long time and I can’t wait.
Speaker 2 (00:00:40):
I know the prep’s been good too. I think just the reflections we’ve had, the conversations we’ve had in the lead up have been good. Hopefully it translates today, but yeah, no, a big topic and something that we’re both sort of keen to explore. It’s good to have that feeling.
Speaker 1 (00:00:53):
Yeah, we want to make today a little bit more conversational by all means. There’s a bit of a disclaimer at the start that we are not experts when it comes to alcohol substance abuse or anything like that. There’s definitely professionals out there that if anything does come up for you today, we can help point you in the right direction for that. And I know that we’re going to put some stuff in the show notes, but today is more around just a really good conversation to bring awareness around the role that the role and the relationship that we as husbands, fathers, leaders, businessmen have with alcohol. And I’m kind of looking forward just to unpacking it more, to shine a torch on it more than anything and seeing where it takes us. I’m really looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (00:01:46):
Yeah, it’s not about telling any, I mean we’re going to talk about our stories and our relationship with alcohol, but it’s not about harrowing life moments or anything like that. It’s really just an exploration of how we’ve sort of encountered it, what we’ve done with it, what we’ve seen in the group because it is without doubt a big part of the environments and circles that we’ve either grown up in or the environments now that we work in.
Speaker 1 (00:02:13):
And I would go down as far as saying that this has been one of the biggest cultural changes that we’ve seen within our coaching communities, and I think that we’re going to talk a bit about this more at the end, but it’s definitely because we run such a holistic approach at Pravar where we’re not just helping our clients be better businessmen. We primarily work with trades and construction businessmen where alcohol has traditionally been a huge part of that industry, especially with blokes and especially with business owners. Alcohol is in all of those circles and there’s been some huge changes, massive cultural changes that we’ve seen within our communities and our client base and just a lot of guys transforming their relationship and creating generational change. That’s what inspires me the most around this is the generational change that we’re seeing around our communities and our clients.
(00:03:11):
It’s huge. And so today what we are going to do is where face the facts is one of our principles here at Pravar, and that’s what this series is all a little bit about. It’s one episode of a series around face the facts, there’s going to be more coming and today’s about facing the facts around relationship. We’re going to talk a bit about alcohol as a device and we’re going to unpack both sides of the equation. We want to talk a little bit about alcohol and in the construction industry around where it’s come from. I know that Ben, Dan and I are going to talk a bit about our individual relationships with alcohol and where we’ve come from to where we are today and the influence that it has had in our world. And then we will talk a bit about the evolution of alcohol and its presence within Pravar in our communities and really looking forward to just unpacking it, just having a real honest conversation around this thing called alcohol.
Speaker 2 (00:04:09):
Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I think you’re right. I think let’s get into it. I think first of all, just alcohol as a device, and I think what you said is really important, Rob, around unpacking and discussing both sides of the equation that alcohol plays in our lives. It’s not to demonise it, it’s not to put it on a pedestal, it’s just a conversation. So maybe if we start off a question is where do you see both sides of that equation? What is the common role that people have with alcohol when they bring it into their world?
Speaker 1 (00:04:40):
Alcohol on one side of the equation, it probably well creates social connections. It’s that place which bonds people together and people have a sense of belonging when they’re together and sharing over a drink. I think it just gives a sense of purpose and connection and social connection. That’s the role that alcohol definitely does play. It’s in an environment which is common at social environment. So I think that it is that thing that creates connectivity against us as human beings and it’s always been present in corporate events and social events and barbecues and family get togethers at Christmases and everything, wherever you think that’s where alcohol does play that part to do keep us connected over something.
Speaker 2 (00:05:29):
Yeah, I think you’re right. I think it’s two parts to that is probably the chemical role that alcohol plays in terms of emotions and heightens emotions and brings out emotions and dampens others. So there’s that emotional side of alcohol which lends itself to that. And then there’s also that community sense, that sense of belonging that you spoke about. I think it’s just used as a device for bringing people together. It’s something that people gather around. It’s something that a lot of people, they come towards it or use it as a way to get closer to people and feel connected. It’s one of those sort of connecting and bonding tools that people have used for centuries.
Speaker 1 (00:06:10):
Yeah, let’s go and catch up and go and have a beer and catch up as mates. Let’s go to a Barbie and hey, let’s grab a drink and off we go. And in that sense, there’s nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with doing that of that side of the equation. Let’s talk about the other side though. Let’s talk a bit about where it does enable certain behaviours. When you think about alcohol, what behaviours does that often enable?
Speaker 2 (00:06:37):
I think I’m going to go into my story a little bit later on, but for me, and I think they sort of fall into three categories, but I think one is avoidance. So alcohol is used on that other side of the coin as a way to avoid something. You can fill in the blanks with whatever that might be, if it’s pain, stress, anything like that. That’s a big one. I think escape is another one. There’s a sense that you can move away from challenges you’re facing or get some sort of reprieve escaping what’s really right in front of you now that you want to avoid. It’s sort of all tied up in that sort of sense of creating an alternate reality or an alternate story or an alternate emotion to what you’re feeling that you don’t want to feel. I think that’s a big part of it. And I think the other one is release. A lot of times that alcohol is used as a release when we have been through certain challenges where we have gone through stress. It’s the pressure valve that we use to release that for better or for worse.
Speaker 1 (00:07:36):
I think it’s really important that we are not labelling alcohol as good and bad. I don’t think that’s what we’re talking a bit about today. It’s shining and torch on both sides of the equation and how people do use it as a device. It literally is, it’s a device, it’s a means to an end, and I think most people don’t explore what relationship they do have with alcohol because alcohol is just a part of everyone’s life, most people’s life. That’s changing by the way, by what we see going on in society in a huge way in terms of non-alcoholic drinks around beers and spirits and all those types of things. There’s a big shift going on in the marketplace, but I don’t think many people take a sip back and go, what is my relationship with alcohol and what do I want my relationship to alcohol to be? I think it’s most people operate on a subconscious level where they’ve grown up in certain environments where alcohol’s super available at social events and so they’re social creatures around alcohol or they’re in environments, but certain behaviours demonstrate when the first moment of stress or cracks or pressure appear, the first thing that someone does is grab a beer or a wine and they do it to numb the pain. And I think most people just do that subconsciously they, it’s an unconscious behaviour they don’t even realise they’re doing.
Speaker 2 (00:09:08):
Yeah, I think you’re right. I think people get exposed to alcohol, everyone’s exposed to it at some point and there’s that initial exposure to it. It becomes something that you interact with or you live with. You don’t really avoid it even if you don’t partake in it. You’re at a restaurant, there’s alcohol around, there’s the ability to see it in all kinds of, not so much these days, but there is advertising still where it’s on and you’re going to encounter it, you’re going to see it. So I think there is a relationship that’s formed and I think there is an exposure to it that everyone has, but people fall into, well, that’s just the way my relationship is and I think people notice it when it changes, but how many people actually consciously choose what that relationship’s going to be? They sort of fall into it.
(00:09:55):
You either do it or you don’t, but did you actually, was it a choice or is it just the circumstances stacked up that way? And then later on as you go through with that relationship, you notice it changing over time and there’s sort of different phases, different elements, different ways of interacting with it. You notice that, but you don’t really make a conscious choice about, well, hang on, what is it going to look like for me? Or what is this moment going to mean if and when I make a choice around it to change that relationship?
Speaker 1 (00:10:22):
And that’s what today’s about is really getting you to challenge to stop and actually take a moment to be able to reflect on, well, what is my relationship with alcohol? That’s a big question to be able to go, well, what is my relationship with alcohol and how do I use alcohol as a device and what need is it fulfilling when I have a drink? And there are almost three big, big powerful questions, but it’s your ability to take a step back and almost meditate or reflect on that to be able to go, well, where does it sit? And you can start making decisions to be able to go, well, how is alcohol actually showing up in my life and how do I feel about that? That’s what it’s questioning, getting you to question stop and question, isn’t it?
Speaker 2 (00:11:12):
Yeah, it is, and I think it’s a habit and it’s just something we do. It’s an action we take and what we’re going to discuss today, it applies equally to other habits, like you said before, it’s our relationship to that thing, not our labelling of that thing. I think that’s where we make a trap, where we go down that path. If we did a whole episode on the pros and cons of alcohol, which might be good, click bait, it never really gets to the bottom line of, well, what’s the relationship and what do you want it to be? It still takes control out of it. You just got to pick a side. It’s still powerless. So I think today’s conversation is hopefully helping people get beyond that and just thinking about that relationship that they’ve adopted or the relationship that they’re currently in and making some conscious choices about that if they want to.
Speaker 1 (00:11:57):
Yeah, for sure. Where do we see alcohol in the construction industry? It’s huge. From your perspective, where does alcohol show up that’s super relevant that we’ve seen within their client base?
Speaker 2 (00:12:16):
I think it’s more that social side. I think there’s that element of, I think it’s a bonding tool mainly in a work environment. Alcohol’s mainly used to bring people together. It’s the great level that you hear people say that all the time. It’s the thing that if we just got together and had a few drinks, we can nut out any problem. We’d solve the problems of the world sort of stuff. So I think as a starting point, it’s that place where you get to that place where it’s time to come together with people that you don’t necessarily know. You might be new to a group, you might be trying to meet people who are new, you might be established whatever it is, but knock off beers, pub lunches, long days out, let’s celebrate that. Let’s have a Barbie and get everyone together. Alcohol gets involved at that level and I think once that gets entrenched as that, and that becomes one of the things you use it for, it works in that sense.
(00:13:08):
So as you said, it brings people together. There’s a sense of connection. It’s a device for doing that. So I think from my perspective, where does it start? It’s that sort of sense of bringing people together and then it bleeds into building teams like, well, as a team, the closer we can get, the more bonded we are, the more we’re going to be able to go off and do. And for a long, long time, building teams and getting people together was always, what should we do? And let’s go to the pub and let’s have a meal, let’s have a barbecue. Let’s just have a night out and a piss and have a good time and we’ll all get together and everyone will have fun. That was, I think, the starting point for a lot of this stuff. And it just became so entrenched. I don’t know. How do you feel about it? What do you see as sort of that starting point or where it’s gone to?
Speaker 1 (00:13:52):
We see it a lot with clients where, because they’re tradies, especially in summer, they work out in the hot sun. Traditionally what you see is that they’re thirsty. They go home crack beers, and it’s not uncommon when sometimes we meet clients that they go home and knock over three or four or half a dozen stubbies a day. It’s not uncommon. And then it, not so much anymore in the construction industry, you’d have knockoff beers on job sites and all those types of things. I think the whole industry is changing a lot that’s not allowed to do that anymore. But you think about the VB ads, they were all geared in the advertising around VB ads where guys working hard, getting a strong thirst for an ice cold beer, and this cold beer is Vic, and that’s the whole marketing campaign was around that. And so in the construction industry, it was knock off beers on Friday and everything like you do.
(00:14:59):
That’s where it was in the industry, we’re seeing it a lot different in our client base. They’re doing breakfasts, guys are doing ice baths and morning breakies and all those types of things. And it’s completely different within our client base now, but I still know that beers in the construction industry is a huge thing. You go to barbecues, you go camping, what’s evident in a lot of that space, alcohol, it’s everywhere. And I think the industry’s changing probably because society’s changing and those behaviours are no longer at the social norm and acceptable. But definitely, it’s definitely big in the industry.
Speaker 2 (00:15:46):
And I know we’re talking about business in the construction industry, but do you think there’s, what do you think in terms of what it means to, it’s probably a huge question, but what it means to be a man’s changing as well or being your best self. And I think our group, the Pravar community is all about becoming the best version of you as opposed to becoming a man, which I think traditionally alcohol has been one of those labels. You put beer in someone’s hand, it makes you a man. Kids. Growing up, the ads were about generational change, as you said, all played to that level. Do you think that change is being facilitated a little bit by what people are deciding it means to be a man and therefore in the construction industry predominantly.
Speaker 1 (00:16:29):
Absolutely agree. I think there’s a lot of conversation around men and masculinity and what it takes to show up as a real man. And in today’s society there’s a lot more conversation going on around health, wellbeing, stress management, personal wellbeing, mental health, mental health, and suicide in the construction industry is the highest compared to any other industry and males in that space is huge. And so I think the whole conversation is changing in the industry around mental health, alcohol, drugs, and substance abuse. It’s the whole narrative and conversation is absolutely changing. And I think a lot of people are putting a lot more emphasis on their health and wellbeing and how they show up and they’re realising that alcohol’s good for a purpose, but it gets to the point where it starts creating diminishing returns, especially when it’s used as a device around avoidance and escape and release. That’s where it’s not healthy, my opinion anyway. But it’s not healthy when alcohol is used for those things because what it does is it’s almost a numbing device to take you away from facing reality, and that’s when alcohol is not healthy.
Speaker 2 (00:18:01):
The part that I see is that there’s two sites to this, and I think this is another point worth jumping into, is there’s a collective sort of view of that sort of thing. There’s that social element where it’s more than one people in a group setting, but then you look at what you said with the suicide rates and things like that, those sort of isolated moments, you’d sort of say these things that people go through with themselves that they don’t talk about in groups. So the group narrative changes what it means to be a man masculinity, everything around groups changes. But then as a business owner, there’s still a different relationship I think, and that relationship to stress. And you’ve been around business owners for decades now in terms of seeing them in those coping mechanisms, have you seen changes or how did business owners differ in terms of the way they’d use alcohol compared to that sort of social lubrication that we’ve been talking about In a group setting?
Speaker 1 (00:18:53):
In a social environment, you use alcohol as a lubricant to connect you to people, but when we’re faced with stressful situations, regardless if you’re a business owner or not, people use alcohol as a depressant to numb them, to avoid it, to avoid the pressures. And for business owners in particular, they sedate themselves and escape from problems like side issue, cashflow problems, team issues, sales issues, and they use it as a crutch and a coping mechanisms to some degree to be able to avoid that stress and that pressure. The problem then is then it exacerbates those often exacerbates those issues and then instead of drinking to make the problems go away, it makes them bigger and it creates more problems because then those problems flow into the family, they flow into how we feel about ourselves, they flow into mental health issues, they flow into lack of ability to focus and be strategic and mentally sharp.
(00:20:04):
So all these problems, alcohol is used as a stress and an avoidance and a coping mechanism, but what it actually does is create more stress and more pressure and more issues not just in business, but then in other areas of life because then arguments on the home front start appearing and you become less present with your family and you become disconnected and all those things. So there’s this big flow on effect of what happens when alcohol is used as a device to avoid the stress that a lot of business owners are facing at the time.
Speaker 2 (00:20:35):
And I think it’s got, it’s been marketed or it’s got that wrap for being an avoidance, a device for avoidance, but you’re not really avoiding anything. This is going to be a terrible pun, but you’re kicking the can down the road with the original problem, creating a whole heap of other ones in its wake, and there’s no improvement on the backend if that’s where it is. And I think that shift is coming and I think that’s the shift we’re really seeing. Is the effectiveness of it as a device for those things or the cost of it being used as a device on the other hand of things?
Speaker 1 (00:21:12):
What do you mean by the cost? The cost of the device.
Speaker 2 (00:21:15):
Well, I think there’s always, you can’t get away from the fact that there’s an addiction to alcohol that people have. There’s people, they form these relationships with the hope or the promise that it’s going to deliver some benefit. That’s why we adopt habits because we do that. It’s our best choice at the time, good, bad, indifferent, whatever it is. But that’s our choice to solve a problem, to derive a feeling or some sort of benefit. What we do in those moments is we get so hooked on the benefit that we discount the cost fully, and we never really even get to see the cost until sometime way later on. So if you’ve got a relationship that you never explore, you get one scic of good at it. I’m talking a relationship just as a relationship with another person, you might get a sugar hit of being with that person, seeing that person occasionally interacting with that person.
(00:22:08):
It’s all good if you develop almost like a crutch in that relationship to get those moments of good and you don’t explore the relationship you’ve got or the cost of that relationship, who knows what you’re putting up with in the meantime, you could be putting up with abuses on the other side. You could be putting up with being manipulated, you could be putting up with bad behaviour on the other side. It could hurt your feelings for every good night that you have with someone. It could be three weeks of just absolute torture. So that’s what I mean by the cost. And it’s the same thing with the relationship with alcohol, because if we don’t explore both sides of it, we never get to make that sort of balanced choice in terms of, well, what’s it costing me? What’s the benefit? Is it outweighing? Is there a better way to get the benefits? Is there a different way to avoid the costs? What am I willing to do in that sense? So I think that’s sort of a big part of this discussion that we’ve kicked off today.
Speaker 1 (00:23:05):
And most people don’t go on this journey exploring this. And it comes back to that age I was saying, is a life not explored? Is a life not worth living? And what it’s saying is most people just go through life on autopilot without really truly unpacking the beliefs, the habits, the decisions that they do make. They often just go through life just on autopilot and especially with alcohol. This is who I am, this is my relationship. I’ve always done it this way and this is how we do things. But especially when people grow up in environments of alcohol, the reality is they’re probably not your behaviours. They’re behaviours that you’ve picked up in social networks, friends and with family. That whole cascading down effect of the environment that we’ve grown up in often influences the decision we make and those we do it unconsciously, which is bloody scary.
Speaker 2 (00:24:06):
It is. And we miss out. We lose that power to, we miss the opportunity and the power to consciously choose then what sort of life we want to build, who we want to show up as.
Speaker 1 (00:24:17):
So let’s use that as a segue into unpacking our relationships. Tell us a bit about your story, Dan, in terms of your relationship with alcohol and where you’ve landed, where you’ve chosen to land today.
Speaker 2 (00:24:37):
Yeah, no problems. I think if I look back on it, elk alcohol was one of those things that was always around. I grew up in a social family. Mom and dad would be, we lived in a great court and there was always drinks on, there was parties on, it was never a Saturday that there wasn’t a knock on the door. You’d be at someone’s house and then there’d be a drink, a barbecue, whatever it was. So it was very social in that regard. So I grew up around all of that, but never really never drank. I saw a lot of drunk people and they were having fun. So it was a good experience of what drinking was. For me, it was the social side. It wasn’t an avoidance. It was a way to meet people and get closer to other people and share good times.
(00:25:16):
So that was very much the very early years, I think as it went on. I never drank until I was probably, I think it was two weeks before I was 18 before I even drank. So I wasn’t one of those early type of drinkers, but I did go to an all boys school, I to, I was heavily involved in football at the time, so footy clubs, all boys school, it was everywhere. So I was sort of one that bucked the trend for a long time. But then I think as I got older, it was probably around that time after I left school. So the first drink, it wasn’t like I just went crazy, but that first drink entered into it, and then it sort of was every now and again, it was very rare. But then once I left school and things changed, my situation changed a lot in terms of being what I was known for and being, I think as a teenager, growing into those early 20 years, it was sort of who I was and what I thought I got, I suppose connection and love and significance and felt like I mattered.
(00:26:14):
That changed. And once that changed, it was a big void. So it was like, well, how do I fill this in if I’m not that anymore? If I’m not the footballer, if I’m not a school captain, if I’m not, all those things that I was labelled with that I thought at the time made me get to know, want to be around people, then what was it going to be? So I think that then changed and it was like, well, I was drinking at the time probably a bit more, and it was fun, still fun from what I’d seen. And so I sort of adopted this sort of behaviour and pattern and that identity of, well, I’m a good party or a good person to drink with. It’s a lot of fun. So from the most of that, then people will still want to be, I still mattered in that social circle. So I think that’s where it started.
Speaker 1 (00:26:58):
So what did you notice then when you started drinking more, that was your way of showing up, and what did that create for you?
Speaker 2 (00:27:06):
I think it created confidence for one or the appearance of confidence, that feeling that I would do things and say things that I normally wouldn’t say. And I think that was that there was no sign of weakness in a footy club and that sort of social circle that the old boys network of the school that I went to, it was any sign of weakness would be pounced on. You didn’t want that. So anything that you couldn’t do if you weren’t outgoing, if you weren’t able to put yourself out there in uncomfortable situations, you wouldn’t do it. You’d avoid that. So in order to go through those things, I drank and it made me have that sort of sense of, all right, I’m invincible here. I’ll go and do that crazy thing, or I’ll say that thing or I’ll put myself in that situation. So I think confidence was one of ’em, and that was sort of the social side.
(00:27:51):
So it gave me social confidence. But then on the other side, what it did was it numbed the pain and probably rising to the challenges that I was experiencing, the change in identity, the need to find my own way to grow up and do all those things. I think alcohol in an isolated individual in my own little world, it was numbing that and it was really, I was thinking at the time, it helped me get to a point where I didn’t care anymore or I drank because I didn’t care somehow. And I think it was probably a big point at that time. It was like, well, I’ll drink and then I won’t care or I don’t care. That sort of weird story in my mind. So that’s sort of what happened. And then footy turned into work and the work that I did and I was in it and we’re in startups and it was sort of, I suppose it was a bit glamorous.
(00:28:42):
I mean, we got flown all around the world for five years to do meetings and just hang out and do dinners and give talks and sales meetings. And so I was very social, but at the same time it was, there were junkets, let’s call it for what it was. There was the work part, the junket part, and then there was just being in a plane and that was it. So I think work turned into those social situations. And then as I got older, new friend showed up, school started happening, there was more social situations and that social lubricant piece kicked in. So I think it was just that both joined up. It was the social side, it served that purpose of a social lubricant. I was probably the textbook person for the social lubricant plus the insular isolating part that said, I want to avoid and numb.
Speaker 1 (00:29:26):
So what changed for you then? Was there a moment in time where you’re like, something’s got to change or what was the change in direction for you?
Speaker 2 (00:29:38):
There was probably a few. I think the big ones for me, as summary as I can be with it, I think becoming a father to kids that knew what was going on and what I’d taken as a kid as being fun and these huge personalities and great times and all of that sort of stuff, I got to experience that as the adult. And I think seeing kids watching you do that and really understanding or starting to see the impact of that. And I just got to a point where I was like, well, hang on, join the dots here. How do you want this to play out? And what do you want to see? So I think for me, a big part of it was generational change. So just having that awareness of what I was doing in front of my kids was sort of a big one.
(00:30:18):
And where that might lead, whether it would or not, I’m not going to debate any of those sort of facts, but just for me, I chose to be aware of that, become conscious of that. And that was that relationship with alcohol and how it was going to impact them. Becoming a better husband obviously I think was a big one, especially travelling so much with work and times when I was away and I can remember being at a time in London, middle of the street, standing there going, I’ve got literally a choice here. I either keep doing this forever or I’ve got to make some real changes. And that involved the job I was doing, the amount I was travelling, it wasn’t just a drink or don’t drink situation, it was just literally what sort of lifestyle do you want to have? So that was that part.
(00:30:57):
And I probably had the recognition as I got older and started reading and educating myself and going through personal development and starting to do some work that I was using, drinking for two purposes as a shield for one to protect myself from whatever it was or a weapon to punish myself. And that was sort of once I sort of saw that and I was having those thoughts about personal development and who could I become, what was I capable of? And that thought about not caring, turned into shit. The reason why I’m doing this is because I really care. And that was a mind bending to me. It was like, hang on, everything. I thought it was this house of cards that I’d built up around why I’d used it, the relationship I had and why did I have that relationship just didn’t stack up. So everything collapsed pretty quickly then. So making a commitment to be better and whatever that was in my eyes at the time in our world, in Pravar, it’s probably to never settle. That sort of kicked in that sort of mindset. And then from there it was, well, what do you do from here?
Speaker 1 (00:31:59):
What did you choose? What was the path you went down then?
Speaker 2 (00:32:03):
Yeah, so I decided to stop drinking and not drink. I became a non drinker for all intents and purposes. So that was sort of my choice. And I chose to have no relationship with alcohol. I shouldn’t say no relationship because it’s still there, but I had a relationship which said I didn’t drink. I can be around it. It didn’t bother me. It doesn’t bother me to this day. My kids are adults now. They occasionally drink, my wife occasionally drinks all cool. And I’ve had drinks throughout I think for, I don’t know, 12, 13, 14, 15, I dunno how many years, but probably three times where I’ve had a drink and it’s been at a party or whatever and have a shot. Okay. And what happens when I do that is two things. One is there’s absolutely, there’s no kick in. I’m already being social now. I’m already at that level where I don’t need the lubrication, so why am I doing this?
(00:32:56):
This is just what goes through my head, why am I doing this? And then it sort of goes into that mode and it’s like, well go back to what I’ve just described. Where did it start? What happened? And it all plays through my head really quickly. And it’s like, well, that was the house of cards. So I just sort of leave it at that point and it sort of just goes away again, I go back to talking to whoever I’m talking to or working on myself to go through the challenge rather than try and avoid it. I just think it’s a way that somehow the wiring in my mind’s changed.
Speaker 1 (00:33:26):
What happened when you made that decision to be a non-drinker and it’s not because you had issues with alcohol or you just wanted to be better and you wanted to be a better husband, better father, better guy in general. And you realised that alcohol was no longer serving a purpose in those social environments. What happened to people around you when you made the decision not to drink?
Speaker 2 (00:33:52):
I think initially they sort of joked around. It was just, what the hell? What the fuck are you talking about? Why would, there’s no way. And I was like, what’s this all about? How long is this going to last? And if you’re having one, you’re having one. And it was all that sort of stuff. And I was, don’t know that sort of you hear that and you sort, I still question myself. I was still are people going? There was a voice in my head going, am I going to be fun? Is going out, going to be fun? And you sort of go through those experiences and I just decided if I’m not going to, I’ve got to put myself, I don’t want to, can’t sit in the corner with a lampshade on my head. So why wouldn’t I talk to people, be me and find out do these people really want to engage with me? Do I want to engage with them? And what am I seeing and noticing? So I think from that perspective, it was just sort of feeling my way through it. It was just walking into a familiar setting but deciding that it was going to be somehow different. But being aware of what you were noticing and being curious about what everyone else was doing rather than feeling like all eyes were on me or somehow it was something that I was doing that was going to be seen as being bad or different.
Speaker 1 (00:34:59):
You said there about being me, what did you learn about? Because alcohol is often a mask and we put on this mass to make us feel confident or to hide from issues, and it’s a mass to protect us often from being who we really are. What did you learn about? You said, I just wanted to be me. What was that for you?
Speaker 2 (00:35:26):
I think I had a picture of who I was inside, but again, that shield and that weapon had been up for so long before it was alcohol, for instance, at the school. It was always playing those sort of roles and doing that. So I think for me, there was a big part of it that was saying, all right, without that, I think I’m this person and I think I’m worthy and worthwhile and people should know me. I think I’m funny. I think I’m good to be around. I think I can hold a conversation. I thought all that stuff, but I’d never really known. I’d never experienced it, I’d never challenged that. So I think when I said, well, not to be me, it’s like, well, I’m going to be that person that I think I am and I’ll find out if that’s who I am or if these are the people that want to be around someone like that. So I think it was just that raw honesty of well, all right, let’s find out. Let’s stop fucking around and really find out what this whole thing’s about.
Speaker 1 (00:36:18):
Love it. Awesome. Thanks for sharing.
Speaker 2 (00:36:21):
That’s all right. So yeah, that’s where it is today. And for better or for worse, it’s not good. It’s not bad, it’s just that’s the relationship I’ve got today. I like it. All right, shall we, do you want to have a chat about your relationship with alcohol Now I’m going to get to ask you some questions. Sure. All right. So you kick us off, mate. You start where you want and let’s talk through your relationship, where it started, sort of where you got to and where it’s gone today. But just kick in and we’ll go from there.
Speaker 1 (00:36:53):
I actually grew up in a family of non-drinkers. I’ve come from a religious background and the closest I got to alcohol was sipping the grape juice or the fake wine at that church on a Sunday. That was the closest I ever got growing up. And so me growing up as a young fella, because I’ve since learned that a lot of our behaviours that we have as adults and beliefs and habits and everything come from our early childhood, but for me, that wasn’t in our environment. My parents weren’t drinkers, whereas we come from a religious background. Where I did notice it though is I grew up in central Queensland in regional area. I played in sporting teams and then moved into the mining industry. So I think 16, 17, 18, early twenties, I used to booze like there’s no tomorrow. And that’s because in those environments it was accepted, encouraged, and I wouldn’t say forced upon you, but that was just the environment that happened, especially in sporting teams.
(00:38:02):
We used to booze hard and in the mining industry, I was a graduate on ridiculous money and there was nothing else to do apart from drink and in mining towns. And so that’s where I was as a younger fella. I think when I moved to that all then carried through, and I’m probably quite an introverted guy now, and looking back then, I definitely used alcohol as my way of getting confident in social environments and have the courage to talk to people in social environments and just be a fun guy to be around almost. Then I’d get to the other end of the spectrum where I’d drink way too much and I’d say stupid shit, do stupid shit, and probably just not like who I became. And that was my turning point I think with alcohol is I’d booze really hard, wake up, hung over, and then I’d be thinking like, all right, what did I say?
(00:39:05):
Who did I upset and how did I embarrass myself last night? And I think that got to my early twenties especially then when I moved to Brisbane and it was those behaviours that I used to demonstrate in regional areas and in the mining industry, they just weren’t acceptable, but I knew no different, and a lot of that was driven by drinking pretty hard. So I think there was a good number of years there where I went pretty hard and a lot of people might say, but that’s just what young guys do. But I probably realised that it wasn’t healthy. Looking back, it definitely was not healthy back in the day.
Speaker 2 (00:39:41):
Yeah. How did you sum that up? Because everything on the other side of you was everything you were seeing and experience. So to be mining towns would say that not only it’s what young guys do, it’s just that’s the way the world works. There was no, you probably chose a different thing, but what led you to have that sort of feeling? Was it the internal feelings you were having or was it something externally? What was sort of that point at which you were able to identify that there needed to be a shift or there was a shift coming?
Speaker 1 (00:40:11):
Big shift came when I left the mining industry and started going out and went out onto my own to do coaching. And this was, I left mining in 2010 and I went out in that space and I know that in 2011 I made some big life changes and life choices and changes in my world. A couple of things I didn’t like who I become and had a big relationship fall over, made a couple of bad decisions in around the time and I just didn’t really like who I was and how I was showing up. And that also coincided then to push me down this journey around self-development. I went to a lot of events, a lot of seminars, read a lot of books, and I was really going on that journey is who is Rob and who do I want to be? And that then coincided with also then was also at the same time as when I was on my journey to push ahead in the coaching space.
(00:41:20):
And I realised that if I wanted to be a really highly successful coach, I had to be the best version of myself. I had to show up in a different way. And if I wanted to grow a really, really good business, I needed to be a high performer. And going out and getting hammered on weekends and being hung over was not conducive to being a high performer. And that was my turning point. Still today I drink, but I know that my relationship from that moment in time from when I made those choices has completely changed.
Speaker 2 (00:42:00):
When you made that choice at the time, did you feel you were giving up either a part of yourself or something that was pretty big in your world? What sort of, not the extent to which you drank all that sort of stuff, but just in terms of what sort of part of your life did alcohol play and was it that version of Rob who you were or was there a separation of that? I’m just keen to understand how you viewed the separation when it came or the distance, I should say. Not the separation, but more the distance you put between yourself and who you were at that time.
Speaker 1 (00:42:33):
I had to make some, I’m an nothing guy. I’ve got a pretty obsessive kind of, I don’t know if obsessive is the right word, but I’m an all in or all out type of guy. And for me to make change around that, I had to make some big environmental changes. And it meant that at the time I had to move away from certain social friends, social environments, certain events that I went to because I realised that if I wanted to really make positive changes, I didn’t want to put myself in those positions. I was never an alcoholic. I just enjoyed alcohol. It’s not like I woke up every day needing a drink. I just loved being in those social environments. And so what I had to do is change environments, change who I hung around with and how and when. And that coincided with me replacing social events and going out partying, getting hammered was when I took up cycling because I knew that if I’d rode on a Saturday morning and a Sunday morning, I couldn’t go out the night before and get hammered. And so that meant I wasn’t going to clubs, I wasn’t going to pubs, I wasn’t having sessions because I knew that I replaced that environment and the people that I was hanging around there with other people which were moving me in the direction of who I wanted to become still with element and alcohol is an element of that in my life, but I wanted to move in a certain direction, which for me, changing my environments and my habits was the biggest thing that created that change for me.
Speaker 2 (00:44:22):
Did it make you think it made that change easier?
Speaker 1 (00:44:25):
Definitely. It made it easier because I didn’t put myself in those positions to drink. I knew I had self-control. If I was going hard, I knew I’d go right, I’m going hard and getting booed, but I had the ability to have self-control, to be able to go to a lunch, have a beer, and then say no. But I just knew that I had to decrease that exposure to it to be able to put myself in an environment where I wanted to live and operate in as a high performer rather than putting myself in those situations.
Speaker 2 (00:44:59):
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Alright, and so what’s your current relationship with alcohol?
Speaker 1 (00:45:11):
I still love a nice ice cold beer on a hot day, I’m not going to lie. I love a really good red, but my mantra is drink less but drink best. And I do have a really nice wine collection and a couple of fridges full of beautiful wine, but I don’t drink during the week and during the week’s off for me. And I drink over at nights of a weekend and really love, it’s winter at the moment, love having the fire on having a really nice red wine. But I’m very mindful that when it’s game on, it’s game on and I’m not drinking because I understand that I want to be sharp in the mind. I’ve got to be really strategic. We run a cracking business and I’ve got a lot of responsibility on the business front and that if I want to show up as the best husband, best father, best businessman, I understand that I don’t want to be hungover. I don’t want to be foggy in the mind. I want to have clear clarity in the mind and clear thoughts and strategic in terms of the decisions that I make. So alcohol for me is I know when to say no, and that’s the best thing that’s come out of my journey over the last number of years.
Speaker 2 (00:46:31):
Fantastic. Awesome. It’s amazing when you think about it, Rob. I think like we said at the start, the changes that happen in that relationship, not necessarily all or nothing, it’s these shifts and changes in you going in and exploring what that means for you at the moment and in that time and then adjusting that relationship as you need to go.
Speaker 1 (00:46:53):
For me, I just didn’t like who I was and when I got hammered. Didn’t like who I was, didn’t, it was a bit of regret and embarrassment almost like, and everyone gets it when they wake up the next day going, fuck, what did you do last night? But I just never liked that and especially when I was getting into business and started having responsibility, I was like, I don’t want to be that person who’s being a knob on the piss. And that was my changer for me. And I realised that if I wanted to be a high performer in business, I had to change my relationship big time with alcohol. It just didn’t serve me. And it’s something that I’ve got to keep in check now to be able to go, well, I know my limit and that’s enough from there and I’ve got to start saying no.
Speaker 2 (00:47:39):
Yeah, for sure. I think you’re right. I think that part of being a high performer or being the best version of who you can be, I think that’s a real sort of telling question, whether or not or to what extent, not whether or not, but to what extent alcohol can play a role in that sort of environment. Like you said, in certain environments it’s accepted. In other environments, it doesn’t help if you put yourself in certain positions, you’re going to perform better without it. And in certain situations it’ll be a different story. But I think that’s a big one. That was probably for me too. I think what we’ve got in common is that element of let’s see what we’re capable of, let’s see where we can perform at our best. And obviously the relationship with alcohol is a big determining factor of that, especially in business.
Speaker 1 (00:48:26):
My kryptonite is I’ve got a rubber arm, and it was like I just had to choose not to be in those positions. And if I was, I knew that if I went hung out with certain people or went to certain events, I knew that I was just going to get hammered and for sure it’s just, just not doing it. And it meant that I lost friends, I lost environments and I moved away from that. But what I gained was an amazing family, a beautiful wife, amazing kids, a cracking business, good mates who were on the same wavelength. And I look back at some mates, they’re doing the same old thing, doing the same old drinking, still partying, there’s no tomorrow. But I feel like I’ve gained more by changing my relationship with alcohol.
Speaker 2 (00:49:16):
Yeah, for sure. God, you talk about kryptonite, I think my kryptonite was probably that I didn’t need to sleep and for the first, I don’t know, 10 years of drinking, I probably never got hangovers, so it got very dangerous very quickly. But anyway, that’s a whole nother story. Should we talk a little bit, I’m keen to take those stories and what we’ve talked about. Hopefully it helps you listening to explore your own relationship and just sort of walk through how your relationships potentially have shifted, changed or whatever. Let’s talk about though the evolution of alcohol in and around Pravar because this has been something, I suppose it was probably unexpected. It certainly wasn’t planned, it wasn’t a directive. We don’t purport to be counsellors in this space or anything like that, but can you tell us in what you’ve seen firsthand about how the relationship with alcohol has changed in the Pravar community?
Speaker 1 (00:50:11):
We’ve been running events since 2016 now, and so we’ve been running client events for eight years. And in the early days, those events were definitely centred around the availability of alcohol at those events, especially because we worked with a lot of business owners, a lot of tradies. It was our way of forming our bonds. There was a big turning point in 2019 where one of the first conversations we have in our leverage programme especially is around facing the facts and the whole howling dog scenario. And we had a client go through that process in 2019 and his name was Sam, and he realised that one of the nails or the facts that he had to face around his own life was his relationship with alcohol and the role that it was negatively playing on him. And he became sober during coaching in that time, and he told his story, inspired a lot of people around it, and he opened the conversation around that, especially when he went out and won our transformation award in Port Douglas in 2019. We told his story of a sobriety and that inspired a lot of people. So I think that that was our turning point back then. And it didn’t come because we made the change. It was a client made the change and it opened the dialogue for the better within our community, yourself and Brendan, a coach that we had came on in coaching in 2021 and who are non-drinkers. And I think that changed the dynamic within our coaching group for the better.
(00:51:54):
And it changed our position in coach as coaches and a coaching team around our stance because all of a sudden our position was, we’ve got a couple of coaches who don’t drink, this is how we do things here. Probably following on for that, we put a lot of emphasis around health and wellbeing and a lot of emphasis on clients as the individual during that time and especially during COVID, we were big on how we show up and mental health and physical health and wellbeing so that during these years there’s been this whole dynamic shift around that. And where it became is that it created a lot of conversation around how does alcohol show up in our worlds and how do we want it to show up as businessmen and husbands and fathers? And the narrative changed. That was being the biggest turning point in our communities, in our coaching groups is the narrative for trades and construction businessmen changed, started to change across the board and guys felt like it was okay and they got permission to not be a drinker. And that was the huge turning point that we saw.
Speaker 2 (00:53:09):
Definitely. You mentioned there that the conversation change and coming in at that time, you couldn’t get away from it. New coach in the business at an event, what are you drinking? Don’t you drink? And that conversation happened over and over with two coaches pretty much at the same time. And everywhere we went, there was these sort of conversations. So I think you’re right. It absolutely opened it up and made it okay. I think beyond the, and it was never a question of was it good or bad? I think the big determining factor is going into a conversation around is it helpful or unhelpful or how is it helping you? How is it not helping? And that I think is the other thing that happens. It was never because I think it’s bad or because that’s good or whatever it might be. It serves in this one not the other. It’s just, it’s helpful here. It’s not helpful there. And then having that, you said we went into individual mode and trying to focus on the individual being a high performer. I think that’s the starting point. Is it helping you be an individual who’s high performing or is it not helping you? And I think that’s the first question. If you’re listening today as a, well, what do I want this relationship to be and how do I want it to maybe evolve and change?
Speaker 1 (00:54:17):
What that then did was it created a lot of clients in our community started exploring their own relationship, and then they started having big transformations. They unpacked their past guys, then went and sought out help because they realised they had addictive behaviour and they realised that alcohol was a part of that addiction. They went and got professional help. They went, became sober, and they created massive transformational change and created generational change, generational that then created ripples amongst our group because all of a sudden it showed up where clients were having greater mental clarity. They were having improved sleep, they were making better choices, they were losing weight, their relationships were changing with their wife, their team, their businesses were growing, they were becoming more profitable, they were more present, more focused. All these benefits became, which is the benefits of not drinking by the way, all these benefits started stacking where then guys started going, what’s he doing? What’s your secret? And a lot of guys then became outspoken going, well, my secret is I haven’t been drinking. And that’s the ripple effect that happened amongst our communities where guys then chose to start either eliminating it permanently or significantly reducing it. And that’s where we’ve landed today in our environments where alcohol is non-drinking is becoming part of the norm amongst our circles.
Speaker 2 (00:56:04):
And I think non-drinking is becoming the norm, but I think beyond that, drinking’s not something to either alienate or bond over. There’s things that our community now has to bond over and things that we do that sort of a bit different. I mean, I know you love the story. You might want to tell it. The event we had when it became so apparent, it was a shock to someone who learned that we were a group of coaches that coach Tradies.
Speaker 1 (00:56:31):
Yeah. We’re at a dinner and a lady’s like, what are you guys here for? She was hammered by the way, and she’s like, she’s like, what are you guys here for? You’ve got a big group of you and like, oh, we’re having a dinner, a bit of a celebration of the year. That’s been, oh, that’s great. What do you guys do? I’m like, oh, I’m a coach and we run a coach. Business owners, oh, what are these business owners? They’re all blokes. I’m like, oh, they’re all a bunch of tradies. And she’s like, they’re not tradies. I know tradies. They’re, they’re not drunk. They should be hammered by now. I’m like, we’re different tradies, and she could not believe that our group of clients were a group of blokes and tradies who are very, very well behaved and she just couldn’t. She’s like, they’re not the tradies. I know. And I’m like, well, these are different tradies and trust me, these are high performing tradies and they run cracking businesses and they have awesome family lives, and that’s just not how we do things around here. That’s our culture, and she just couldn’t get it. But that was my real moment where I went, we are different and I’m okay with it.
Speaker 2 (00:57:34):
Definitely. A hundred percent. I totally agree. I think that’s been a good point to end it with that story. Is there anything else you want to add to this conversation?
Speaker 1 (00:57:44):
I just want to really encourage you, if you’re listening today, to really explore what your relationship with alcohol is, and I want you to really think about what’s the cost that that relationship might be having and what life might look like if you changed it for the better. And it’s your ability to make change for good and consciously choose how you want to have alcohol in your life. And if you can do that, then you become an empowered person with choice. If you are sitting in that environment where you think that drinking is problematic and you do have issues with alcohol or substance abuse, then it’s okay to put your hand up for help and seek professional advice if you feel that is your position. I know that Dan and I are not experts in this area, but what we’d be encouraging you to do is jump into the show notes and follow the links there to be able to get some details of qualified professionals and start the conversation to be able to make some positive change.
Speaker 2 (00:59:00):
Definitely. If I can add one thing there, mate, I think even if you are not willing to change your relationship right now, I think just go back and explore like we did when we shared our stories. Go back and explore and just see how that relationship has shifted and like you said, what are the costs or the other side of the coin? Well, if you don’t know or just really weigh it up and look at those things that have already happened because it’ll take some of that fear out of, well, if I do this, what might happen? It’s just that one decision point. But you’ll see if you go back and tell yourself or explore your story and that relationship, you’ve already been making these decisions as you’ve gone. So really it’s just another one of those conscious choices that you make and hopefully one for the better.
Speaker 1 (00:59:46):
Yeah. Should we wrap it up there?
Speaker 2 (00:59:49):
Let’s do it. We got some key takeaways today.
Speaker 1 (00:59:52):
Yeah, let’s look at them. Takeaway for me is it’s hard to be a high performing businessman with an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, which is largely acts as a depressant.
Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
I’ve got, if you’re willing to explore this relationship with alcohol and choose how you want it to be a part of your life, it’s amazing how quick and the magnitude of the changes that are possible, not just for you, but for, like we said, the people underneath you, the generational change and the people that are in your circles.
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
If you ask anyone who’s changed their relationship with alcohol, whether it’s significantly cut back or eliminated altogether, the one thing that they will tell you is that they will say that they didn’t underestimate the positive change that would happen when they reduced or cut alcohol from their life and the flow on effects from business, family, and life that they would have. So I’d be encouraging you today to really explore your relationship and see how you can make some positive changes in your world when it comes to alcohol and other addictive behaviours. Thanks for bearing with us today. Hopefully, really enjoyed today’s episode and we’ve been looking forward to doing this one for a long time and can’t wait to be able to come back to you next week with another episode on The Trade Den.
Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
We’ll see you soon.
Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
See you.