Episode 30 Podcast Transcript
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you want to grow your business beyond one or two mates, then there’s just no way around this changing your identity and going from being a mate to managers. It’s a non-negotiable. It’s the price of admission really.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hi everyone. Rob Kropp here and welcome back to another episode of The Trade Den. Welcome back Dan. How are you mate?
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hey Rob. Good, thank you. Feeling really good. Actually, we are coming towards end of another quarter. I can’t believe it, but we’re almost on the run home for the end of the year. It’s gone so quick.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, I love this time of year. It’s last quarters in reviews, getting ready for pops or quarterly action plan depending on what programmes we’re in with our clients. It’s just a great time to sit back, reflect on the quarter that’s been and gear up for the last quarter of the year. Can you believe we’re coming into the sprint into Christmas?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I know, and it is the sprint too. This is where everyone tends to get really busy, but it’s always good to bring clients back on track and really finish out the calendar year strong and even start setting up for the year to come in 2025.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, now’s that time of the year where we’re always having these conversations with clients around that Christmas is not the finish line, it’s a moment in time and we are looking beyond it to set up quarter one and so yeah, I can’t believe it’s almost three quarters down of the year. It’s crazy. Where is this year going? But hey, I’m really looking forward to today’s episode. It’s going to be a great episode. Not necessarily a lot of action steps or a lot of practical things to get out of it. It’s more of a different perspective and a bit of a reflective type of conversation today, isn’t it?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, we’re going to be doing a mindset conversation I think is probably the best way to categorise this and the shift in mindset that all business owners have to make, especially the guys that we talk to and the world we live in. It’s a pretty clear journey that they have to take, but this is one of those moments to reflect on where you’re at in your journey and how you can progress that journey in a way that’s going to help you and get you there in the quickest time possible.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, absolutely. And when we talk a bit about this journey, the thing that we’re talking a bit about here is a transition that you as a business owner has to make and there’s two really big transitions that you’ve got to take in your journey so that you can continue to stay ahead of the curve of the growth of your business. We’ve got to remember that our business will never outgrow who we see ourselves as individuals. And that journey and that transition that business owners has to go on is number one, is going from a good doer to a good manager and then going from a good manager to a great leader. And there’s a couple of key transitions that have to be made there so that you’ve got the ability to keep transitioning within your journey. It’s really important to remember that being a great bloke or being a great tradesman doesn’t always make you a good manager as well. And I think a lot of guys, Dan, they think, well, if I’m just a great bloke or a great trader, it’s automatically going to make me a great manager. But time and time again we see it that it doesn’t always equate, does it?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
No, there’s so many more things that go into management and it is a real skillset. And to think that you can somehow your way through business ownership is probably one of the worst positions you can take yet that’s where a lot of people start, which is why we’re doing this episode today.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, I think it’s important to remember that anyone can start a business and anyone can rip in and get the job done. As a tradesman that’s a given. And I think it’s that next step that so many people fail at where they fail in taking that step of being a good tradesman into a great manager because management is about managing and empowering and driving performance through people. It’s easy for someone to be able to get in and get the job done themselves, but it’s harder to be able to get the job done through someone else. And that’s the difference between being a good doer and a good manager is that it’s about getting an outcome, not by you physically doing the work. And that’s why management is so important is it’s a skillset within it’s their own. And a lot of guys fail because they try and grow a business, but they still try to grow it as if they’re being a good tradesman.
(04:29):
And that’s where things start unravelling very, very quickly. Now today what we’re going to be talking a lot about is transitioning from a mate to a manager. And this is a big topic because when you’re trying to grow a business, one of the biggest traps that any trades business owners make is that they try and trade off their friendships or this sense of mateship on site to be able to get things done. And it’s about remembering that having that mindset or that sense of mateship is probably good when you’re starting to get into business, but there’s got to be a point in time where you can no longer be a great mate to the boys on site. You’ve got to start turning into a great manager to the guys on site. It’s remembering that successful business owners, they’ve got to learn the art and the craft that is management and the ability to lead and influence and power their teams to be able to drive an outcome. Because when you’re building a business beyond the million dollar mark, it’s no longer necessarily about how long and hard you work, it’s about how well you’ve got the ability to manage and lead a team of individuals to be able to get the job done. So this is why this topic is so important because being a mate gets you so far, but you’ve got to make that decision at some point to be able to turn the corner and transition into a great manager or a great leader.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
And I think as you listened today, it’s it’s not a knock on people that are friendly. It’s not a knock on guys that are mates with guys on site, guys that are really good tradesmen and qualified and know their job really well and enjoy being on site. It’s not a knock on any of that stuff, but this is one of the things where most guys, when they get into coaching, this is the thing they’re wrestling with. How do I take that step and what does it mean for me to go from being that guy the gun on site or one of those really cool guys that everyone seems to love and get on well with the popular guy on site? How do you go from being that guy to being a true manager of a trades business? So I think that’s sort of part one of this.
(06:33):
And in this episode we’re going to talk through some of the mindsets and strategies that we’ve put into place with clients to see them make that journey. We’ve walked hundreds of people through that journey, but how do you break that hamster wheel cycle that you found you find yourself on and really achieve what you wanted to when you first set out to get into your own business, which is being able to manage it and run it and lead it the way you want to. If you can’t make this change from mate to manager, though you’re really going to be stuck at square number one.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah. How many times do we see it? They just can’t break through this space because they haven’t made the mental decision to no longer be one of the boys, but to turn into a manager that manages the boys. And it’s the thing that holds so many guys back in the trade space, especially the younger guys who have got young, their mates around, they’ve hired early in the journey. So this is super relevant for you young guys running businesses. You’ve got to make the decision boys, you’ve got to be able to no longer be one of the mates. You’ve got to make that transition from being one of the mates to a manager and it’s one of the toughest decisions you’ll probably make, but you’ll thank yourself in the next 12 to 18 to 24 months. What we want to talk today is about the four different phases of transitioning from mate to manager. We want to step these through individually for you to be able to give you almost a bit of a framework on how you can work through it. We’ll talk through acceptance, we’ll talk through embrace, we’ll talk through remove and learn. So specifically today we’ll talk about accept, embrace, remove, and learn, and hopefully this framework helps you make some transitions in your own mind.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And I think that’s one of the things that’s missing Rob for a lot of guys is they just dunno how to do it. What’s the first step? And all they can see is this end result. That’s where they are now. They can’t see where they’re going to end up as a manager. So I think being a mate with one of the boys would’ve got you where you are today, but deep down, you know have to change. You’re not going to get where you want to go in your business and in your life if you just hold those relationships and everything you do is trade off friendships like we said at the start. So let’s walk through these four phases and start off with the first one, which is accept. And when we talk about accepting, we’re saying accept that you are no longer one of the boys.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, this is a big one. And what we’re really talking a bit about here is identity. And this is a big topic we probably need to run a whole episode on identity, but your identity is a reflection of who you see yourself in the mirror looking back at you when you’re looking at yourself in the mirror. And when you get into business, I’m sure that when people ask you, they might say, Hey Dan, what are you doing? You might go, I’m the plumber, I’m a plumber or a sparky or I’m a carpenter, or whatever it is. And that’s your identity talking, you’re talking as if you’re a trades business. When you start to grow your business, there will be a point in time and as you transition your identity, you will become that person who then starts asking and says, what do you do? And you might then say, well, I run a plumbing business, I’ve got a team around me.
(09:56):
We run a plumbing business in Melbourne, for example. That’s your identity talking because you no longer identify yourself as a tradie. You’re starting to identify yourself as a business owner. And when it comes to your identity, it’s super important to remember that your business will never outgrow your identity. It just never will. And so whilst you identify as the tradie, one of the boys on site hanging around, being cool, being matey, matey, buddy, buddy, whilst it’s important to do that, to be able to have a good culture whilst you hold onto that identity, that’s what’s going to keep you trapped at a certain size business despite all the opportunities that are going on out there in the marketplace.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, our remote clients all the time, Rob, when we talk about identity or we get into these conversations, those two words I am, and there’s that quote that there is that I am are the two most powerful words in the world because whatever you put after them is what does drive your actions, your decisions and your behaviours. So they’re very powerful words. Whatever you’re putting on the end of I am really, that’s your first point of reflection. Reflect on that and imagine how that’s driving your decisions and what would it mean if you were to change that or you would go from that I am a mate with the boys on site to another role or another identity of I’m a business owner like you just said, two different worlds.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I think beyond identity. The next one is accepting that you are different the way that you think and behave. What do you think we mean when we say that we are different as business owners?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I think we’ve touched on it on the podcast a lot and I think there is, it’s almost like there’s a different gene that business owners have that people that don’t get into business as business owners and don’t experience it, they just don’t have that gene. So I think there’s the way you think and the way you behave, the decisions you make, the urgency you have around certain things, whether they be the way jobs get done on site, the way you look at the way people carry themselves, you’re able to pick up, up and see things that other people don’t. And I think when it’s you that’s doing that, you take it for granted. But as someone who’s worked extensively through both sides of the fence in corporate and having my own business, they’re very different gears or very different worlds that you operate in. And I think being able to recognise and accept there’s that word that you are different is probably a really good starting place to take this journey from going from mate to manager.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It’s almost accepting that we’re a little bit messed up in the head to some degree, isn’t it?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, you said that, but yeah, I’d agree. Definitely.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
We’re wired differently.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Correct. Yeah. There’s something in there that’s not quite right, but it makes it all the more interesting for sure.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, absolutely. The next one for me is accepting that you can’t manage your team when you try and be one of them. And this is especially relevant when you might be doing say million dollars or sub million dollars when you’re still on the tour heavily when you are buddy buddy matey, matey, going out on the piss, hanging out thinking you’re cool, trying to create this awesome environment and this great place to be on. And especially if you’ve hired your mates to be able to come and work for you, you just can’t manage them when you’re one of them. It’s just impossible, isn’t it?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah, it’s what we call nice guy management and nice guy management means that you’re trying not to upset the apple cart if things can all just go along swimming, then we all get along and they have fun together and that’s all you’re really managing to. I think that carries you so far. But as a business grows and develops, it needs structure, it needs standards, it needs a way of operating that everyone can relate to. So I think that’s really important that you understand that nice guy management doesn’t necessarily work. It doesn’t mean that you’re not friendly, that you’re not respectful. It doesn’t mean all of those things that turn you into an asshole. It’s not that at all. It’s just that you have to get to that next level.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I think that for me it’s that word of objectivity. And so my rule in coaching is don’t do a friends, don’t do a family. That’s my rule is because you can’t be objective as a coach when there’s a relationship or emotions involved. And it’s no different to when you hire your best mate and then you’ve got a couple of mates and you might be in your early thirties and you’ve got a couple of boys working for you and you’re on site and you’re having a laugh and it’s all great and you’re all taking the piss and then you go out on the weekend and get on the beers and it’s great social life and oh, isn’t it amazing that we’ve got this environment where we all want to work together. And then on Monday Bob doesn’t turn up Sam’s late and Frank’s not toeing the line in terms of his level of productivity. It’s bloody hard to then turn around to them and go, mate, you are late. You need to clean up your act. And by the way, it’s not acceptable. We’ve work that that way. You just can’t be objective and have those proper management or performance management or difficult conversations when you’re mates because it feels hard to have that conversation because you’re so buddy buddy with ’em. Then you’ve got to go back to being their mate the next day on site.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, there’s always got to be that little bit of distance and it sounds harsher, it sounds cold, but it’s just the way that it works best and it really does work best for everyone in coaching. We have it all the time coaches, we are friendly, but we can’t be overly matey with guys as we get to know them the minute we do that. It’s so much harder to hold someone to account. It’s so much harder to have a conversation. It just becomes something that the dynamic shifts and changes and no longer as a result of that. We don’t necessarily like it all the time, but as a result of that, we can’t get the results for the clients that we’ve got. And if you’re doing that in your role in your business, you’ll struggle to get the performance you need out of your team as well. So again, you’ve got to have that little bit of separation because when it comes time to hold people to account, you can’t do that if your whole bond and your whole connection’s built on mateship, it just makes it impossible.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah. The next one around acceptance for me is around accepting that you’ve got responsibilities and obligations as a director of your company, you’ve got certain obligations and responsibilities that you have to uphold and that business ownership, I think a lot of business people underestimate the responsibilities that they’ve got as an owner when they sign their sign on as a director, a lot of people don’t realise what they’ve signed up for and we’ve got an obligation, we’ve got duties, we’ve got responsibilities to perform and deliver. We’re no longer responsible for just putting food on our table. We’re responsible for feeding other people in our teams. And so that comes with a level of responsibility and especially the bigger the business that you have, the more responsibility that you have to shoulder on your shoulders as the director of your company. And that just comes with a level of responsibility and a lot of level of maturity. And that means you’ve got to step up and actually be a leader rather than one of the boys. And it’s a big turning point that trades business owners have to make at some time. Otherwise they will never get to where they want to win business and they’ll always be too busy blaming everything else and everyone else. But really the problems inside of them.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Agreed. And I think those responsibilities, they’re social as well as legal too, which you’re talking about. There’s proper legal ones and I think that’s some of the things that drive that level of urgency are business owners facing realities and things that just don’t apply to people that are staff and part of the team.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
For sure. The last one is accepting that some decisions means that there’s going to be things that you make decisions on. You’re not going to be popular, you’re not going to be liked. You’ve got to accept that. You’ve got to accept that sometimes you’ve got to make a call on things and other people are going to like it, not going to like it and they’re going to agree with you sometimes they’re going to disagree with you sometimes. And you’ve got to realise that being part of being a manager is that you’ve got to make calls and be willing to make that call regardless if you’re going to be liked or not because you’re making the decisions for the right reason, not because you’re making the decision to be liked. And so that’s why it’s so important to be able to start creating that little bit of separation between you and your ground crew because you can’t be objective, you can’t make those hard decisions as a business owner when you’ve lost all that level objectivity is super important.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And if you’re going through this transition at the moment, one of the things you’ve got to remember that management’s not a popularity contest. The best managers aren’t the most popular. In fact, popularity doesn’t come into it. That likability factor, like you said, it’s objective, good judgement that’s consistent. That’s really what’s at the heart of this thing. So I think that’s really important to remember that it’s not a popularity contest.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It reminds me of the time when we had a client, one of our awesome mastermind clients come and share his story to our launch guys. And we do that every quarter for our launch clients. Someone who’s further down the line come and share their story. And this topic is super topical for our launch guys, the guys who are getting off the tools, building at their ground crew, bringing in admin and office space and bookkeepers and everything for the first time. And they’re really grappling with this going from a doer to a manager, it reminds me of that time when Adrian was telling us that story where he was that guy where he’d be out getting on the piss with the boys and having parties and creating this culture of a fun, great environment. And he thought that that’s what it took to be able to be able build his team and create an environment where people wanted to work.
(19:42):
He soon realised that the more he did it, the more he attracted that type of employee into his business. And it wasn’t until he goes, actually, this is not how I want to be operating in my business and I’ve got to step up my game. That he realised that he could no longer be one of the guys having Friday beers, partying on weekends and catching up socially with his team. It’s a step that ended a decision that he had to make. He had to start hanging out with other business owners, not start hanging out socially with his team as much. And so that story really resonates with me and it was a real aha moment for all of our guys in launch where they’re like, yeah, you’re right. Things have got to change. And that first change first comes with me.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
And that’s why we talk about that first phase is accept the minute you do that, the rest of these things open up and follow on. And speaking of following on, let’s talk about the second phase, which is embrace. And what we are talking about here is embracing your management apprenticeship and what we like to say is embrace the suck. Management is hard. It’s not easy, it’s challenging. It’s not like you walk into an ivory tower and everything’s just laid out in front of you and things get easier, they get harder. As you start to get further into management, you’re dealing with one of the biggest variables in business, which is people.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Why do you think management is hard? Why do you think it’s such a hard thing to start wrapping your head around and start becoming good at it?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I think there’s two things happening in management. One is that you are working with other people, like you said before, it’s your ability to influence and get a job done or get a result without being there yourself, be it physically or mentally. You are not the one directly working on a job in the trades business we talk about. I think the other one though is as you go into management, you are accountable for more things and that level of responsibility definitely ratchets up. So there’s a gap between you getting the responsibility which goes onto your shoulders, but then getting the job done and holding people to account. I think it’s that difference that’s there. And I think it’s also the fact that the minute you’re managing not just a business, you’re managing people, you’re starting to deal with so many different inputs and variables and no two people are the same. And how do you get performance when I’ve got so many different things. We’ve got 10 people on site and you multiplied all those connections out and how you could get different combinations of results, it would just go on and on forever. So it’s technically challenging, it’s mentally challenging, it’s just not an easy role.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
And we hear it all the time with clients and they’re like, oh, it feels like I’m mismanaging a daycare centre kind of thing. And that’s why, because no doubt when you got into being a trades person, you probably hated school. You probably love the outdoors. You love being physical and solving problems with your hands. That’s why a lot of traders get into the construction industry or the space because they love the physical work. But what’s management? It’s mental. It’s a mental game and it’s all the soft skills that come along with that. And the reality is most people spend four years to become qualified as a tradie, but how much have you invested in your own skill development to develop the soft skills? And when I talk about soft skills, it’s around empowering your team, relinquishing control, delegation, driving performance, holding people accountable. They’re all soft skills that have to be learned and practised and developed over a period of time. You can’t just read a book and go, great, now I’m a great manager. You’ve got to practise it down over and over and over again don’t you?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
You really do. It gets grooved over time and I think that’s, you talk about it all the time. We are building a business greater than yourselves. No longer about working longer or harder. Maybe just talk about that. And there’s hard skills that go with management too. So it’s development on all fronts really when you step into this journey.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, I think getting a business up out of the ground, you’ve absolutely got to put at the time and the energy and effort to be able to get the business up out of the ground. You’ve got to work your ring out to be able to get there. Once you get to a certain size, it’s all about relinquishing control, finding the right people, leverage delegation and accountability. And we see this that a business owner can do a million dollars a year and work 60 to 80 hours a week, but someone can do 5, 6, 7, 8, $10 million a year and do it in 30 to 40 hours. And so input in does not drive output out. And the reason why someone can do six mil a year and do 800 to a million dollars in net profit is because they’ve learned the power of leverage and leveraging through good people and the ability to lead them well and managed to outcomes and drive performance. And they’re just soft skills that have to be developed over a period of time. And you can’t do that when you think like a bloody tradesman. And that’s what we were talking about before. Your identity has to evolve from being a great tradesman to learning to love what it takes to be a really good manager and wanting to work with people no longer wanting to work with your hands. It’s a real decision point that a trades person has to make at some point if they want to build a lifestyle business.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
And we’ll talk more about these skills of management as we go. Like we said today, today’s not as much a strategic episode where we are throwing action steps at you. It’s this reflective piece on where you are going. So embracing the suck and embracing the fact that you’re in a management apprenticeship is really important. I think one of the things that I’m always keen to offer to clients is that it’s okay to get better. You don’t have to be perfect. You can grow into this. In fact, there’s the only way you can do it. Like you said, you could read the perfect book on management if it existed, which it doesn’t, but you could read that book a hundred times. It wouldn’t mean shit because until you are in the chair and you’re making decisions with your team and the people that you are managing and the business that you are running, you’re not actually lifting any weight. It’s all you’re really doing is just reading a book on how to lift weights. It’s two different things to actually get in and then do the work, but just keep telling yourself it’s okay to get better and then you’ll learn to embrace that apprenticeship that as you go on.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
This is where the power of coaching comes in is you can watch training videos, you can watch read books, you can definitely listen to podcasts and all those types of things to consume content. But coaching is the ability to develop and contextualise that content. It helps you deal with certain situations, Hey, I’m coming up against this. What would you do? Hey, I’m in this situation, what do you do? I need to have this conversation. How do I go about it? You can’t learn that through downloading eBooks, listening to podcasts and all those types of things, that stuff that content. It’s funny enough, we’re talking about this on a podcast, that stuff is good to learn to develop the skill, but it’s your ability to turn that skill into actual management skills and an outcome is what comes through coaching and that’s why obviously where big advocates of coaching coaching helps you groove those skills to develop into a great manager.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
So let’s keep moving. Let’s get into phase three and this word remove and what we’re actually talking about here is removing the guilt around this new role in terms of becoming a manager. Rob, can you just explain, we could talk about this for days, and this is probably a whole series, but removing the guilt around your new role.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
This is a big one that guilt’s that internal feeling. It’s subconsciously how you feel about something that’s not logical. That’s almost what guilt is. And it’s not a logical thought, it’s a internal feeling. It’s an emotion that bubbles up for some people. And when it comes to removing the guilt around getting offsite and being around on and learning to love your new role is guys often question what their team are going to say or what their team are going to think if they’re no longer present on site. And it’s that whole sludge factor that we talk a little bit about in coaching where it’s like, oh, you’re off to sit in the cosy warm officer, your boss kind of thing, and they’re hanging shit on ’em because the boys are on site busting their ass in the freezing cold or in a boiling hot day and you as the owner are sitting in the office sitting there punching out quotes very well that you’ve got a huge responsibility to keep the pipeline full. But it’s that internal feeling going, I wonder what the boys are going to think. Are they wondering if I’m turning up early or if I’m staying late? And that guilt often overrides the logical thought pattern that we have, which then causes people to go back out on site and never actually truly step off site.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah, I think it comes back as well a little bit of this into phase one, which is accepting that you’re different. I mean that’s the whole point. The reason why people are throwing that shit at you around, well, why you not having a good afternoon? Enjoy the golf course. Whatever it might be they throw at you. The reason why is because they’re putting in a statement that says that you are not one of us. And it’s true, you’re not. You’re a manager. So I think that acceptance thing plays into this a little bit. And if you can accept that you’re different, that you’ve now got a different role in the business, that guilt factor’s not as high, it doesn’t hit as hard, it doesn’t pierce through the armour that you’ve got that you’ve built for yourself on site as much. If you can accept that you are in a different role and hey, you are a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, I think it’s also being wary of when you have those thoughts around, well do my team think I’m taking the piss? And a lot of guys then find themselves unnecessarily being on site because they’re worried about, well, if I don’t show face, what are my team going to think? Or they get in early because I’ve got to be the first one there to be able to show the boys that I could still do that. Or they jump on site and smash out a day going, huh, I can still be one of the boys and I’ll show them how I can knock it out early. That’s just guilt, that’s just emotional, irrational thought, keeping you trapped and what it’s doing is making you work long hours. You might be spending 20 or 30 hours on site unnecessarily at the expense of your family time at nighttime because then you’re doing what you should have got done during the day at nighttime because you are guilty and you found yourself on site unnecessarily. So this guilt is something that will bubble up for you a lot in your journey. It’ll bubble up when you’re going from being a doer to a manager. It’ll bubble up when you’re going from a manager to a leader, leader to mastery. You keep going through your journey. Guilt is always going to be ever present, but you’ve just got to know when to identify it and when to push it to a side and just do what you need to get done to be able to lead and manage this organisation going forward.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, agreed. The next thing I want to talk on this little thing about removing guilt. I’ve got an opinion I want you to give us. Yours is, do you think guys really care that much? Do they really care where you are going at the end of the day, it’s not really a concern of theirs, is it?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
No, they don’t give a shit. They honestly don’t. And they might say a few off the cuff comments, but they’re just trying to bring you back a peg and they’re trying to bring you back to sight and they’re trying, they’re saying that is almost a bit of a test around how willing are you to step up, but the reality is they don’t give a shit. They know that you’ve got a quote work, they know you’ve got a price work, they know that their jobs dependent on having a solid pipeline in front of them. Now if you are taking the piss and going and playing golf every second day, you probably fucking deserve those comments. But if you know deep down you are putting in the effort, then don’t be a dick about it. Turn up when you need to. Don’t put in overtime, then you have to and stop being worried about what other people think so much because in the end of the day they’re not even thinking about you. That’s just your ego talking.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, it’s what you think they’re saying that’s keeping you held back, not what they’re actually saying. It’s your own response as you said to start with.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah, so true. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Alright, so let’s get into the last phase of this. And I think once you’ve gone through those first three phases, we get to this point where we say learn to love your new role. So learn is the fourth phase of this and it comes with time and I think it starts, I mean you talk about it all the time about how long you spend to become a great tradesman and then what that turns into at the end of the day. Where do you go with that 5, 10, 15 years of experience to become a great tradesman and what does it mean when you turn your hand to management?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, it’s one of those things, we see it a lot in coaching where guys, and when we teach this in launch, we’ve got this slide where it’s like a fish sitting out of water. There’s a bowl on the table and the fish is sitting in the chair and that image just represents, it’s like a fish out of the water. It’s feeling foreign and unnatural to them. And that’s what it’s like when you step off the tools and step into the office for the first time. You have to learn to love your new role. You’re no longer physically demanding. It’s no longer physically demanding. And there’s a lot of changes that come with that because when you’re on site, you’re working your ass off, you’re burn calories, you’re probably keeping pretty lean and pretty fit. Then you get into the office and you’ve all of a sudden got to learn to appreciate and how to manage yourself in an office environment, which is completely foreign, but it’s making big personal changes because how often do we see it damn guys stack on weight because all of a sudden they’re not training, they’re not eating well, they’re not going to the gym and not keeping healthy and fit on site.
(33:58):
Then all of a sudden their weight blows out. So there’s a big change that happens when guys step off site for the first time.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah, there is. And I think it comes with just, it is that identity, but I think it’s also you are drawn to doing things like you’re drawn to working with your hands. You got into a trade because of that. And I think you’ve still got that in you. There’s that sort of default mode of how you function best. And I think that still happens, but when you start to get into business, you get into business for more than that. You didn’t get into business to do more with your hands to pick up more work. You did it because you wanted more time, more money, more freedom, whatever it might be. And I think that that sort of contrast, that conflict between what’s comfy and what you know ultimately need to do’s really the hard choice of this, but learning to love that new role where you step into is really important.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Do you think people know what they’re signing up for when they get into business?
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Hell no. If you did, you’d never do it right if you knew what was coming and you really knew what you were getting in for. I think people have got an idea about what it means to be a business owner and a successful business owner. No one signs up to be a ship business owner, but they all sign up to have the successful business, whatever success means in their mind. But if you knew and you could walk someone through, if we coach people on here’s the journey and this is exactly what it’s going to look like, people would be running for the exits most of the time. There’s very few people that walk into business knowing exactly what it’s involved and how much it’s going to take to actually get there.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah, it’s funny, isn’t it? We hear it all the time in coaching where it’s like, well, I’ve got into business and I want to grow this and I want to achieve a certain outcome, but I don’t want to get off the tools. It’s like, well mate, there’s a fucking disconnect between what you want and what you’re willing to do. And that disconnect is your lack of willingness to change your identity. Unless you shift your identity and want to become a manager, want to get into a leader, want to relinquish control and delegate and hold people accountable and drive performance through those soft skills, then you’re never going to have a business that you are out of the day-to-day grind. And you’re constantly going to be a highly leveraged self-employed person that may be hires one or two people. So it’s why I asked you that question because people have the fantasy around what business is going to deliver for them. Yet the comment is, I don’t want to get off the tools. And that’s just often coming from a place of comfort and security and safety for them.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah. And do you think that people have a bias towards when they’re in the management chair, they’re thinking about being on site and all the great stuff and they tend to forget that there was stuff that sucked on site. And same with business management. When you are managing, it’s not all fun and games and you don’t love every part of it, do you? There’s stuff that’s hard. Both of us could probably list things that we don’t like about managing, but it’s part of the job. But we love overall what that role entails and what it brings and all the other stuff that comes with it.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, correct. And it’s foreign and that’s why we addressed it earlier around number two, around embrace is when you do get offsite and into the chair, it reminds me of Jack the Plumber. His story really resonates with me because a lot of things we tackle in our leverage programme is big shift in identity around how you show up. And this is where we’re tackling conversations with clients around no longer wearing high vis. And you turn up when you need to in the morning, not turn it up at seven o’clock because that’s what you’ve always done, or taken the tools off the back of the truck because you no longer need it. And all those types of things, big identity shifts. And we got to coach clients through that. And I remember with Jack, he resisted for ages because he was comfy, he was safe. It’s what he knew he loved being Jack the plumber and it was foreign for him, but the more that he lent into it, the more that he had the conversations, the quicker he got the tools out of the back of the truck, the quicker he put a polo on and some chinos or jeans rather than the high-vis, the more that he started to realise going, you know what, I’m kind liking this new jack and I’m loving starting to love my role.
(38:16):
And that just started to groove for him and ask him now he’s like, no way would I be back in the digger. It’s just not my jam anymore.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
No, exactly. Exactly right. It’s the same. I was thinking as you were talking about that with Benny Wolf, the electrician who’s got his high vis framed these guys from site framed his high vis and gave it to him as a present. It sits above his desk now in his office.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, it’s just one of those things guys, that if you are listening here today, you just got to make that choice to make a change. You got to make that choice to no longer be one of the boys and you got to start accepting that. You got to transition from a mate to manager if this is the path that you want to go down Now. It’s not for everyone. Not everyone’s cut out to be a business owner. Not everyone’s cut out to be a subbie. Some people just don’t have that little bit of a loose wire in their head and they do like working for someone else. That’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with that. But if you choose this path that is business ownership, you can’t choose to be a business owner and choose to be one of the boys on site at the same time they’re in complete disconnection with each other. So if you want to keep moving forward, one of the biggest things you have to do is evolve your identity. You’ve got to change the person that’s looking back at you in the mirror and you’ve got to start transitioning from being a mate to a manager, manager to a leader. And when you do that, that’s when your results in business and life are absolutely going to change for the better.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I love it. And at the end of the day, Rob, I think you’re still problem solving. You’re still building stuff and in trades, that’s what guys, a lot of guys love that, and it’s just a different form that it’s taking when you finally take these steps.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah, correct. I know when I got into coaching, I was rob the coach and I would have a hands-on approach with clients and I used to love getting outcomes and then all of a sudden I started made that decision to hire a team and I then started loving building the coaching business and loving seeing the coaches succeed. And now I’m in a pure leadership role. I’m leading this group, I’m leading Pravar Group, I’m leading our communities. I’m providing leadership and management to our team and I love it. We wouldn’t be able to have 120 clients on the books right now. If it was Rob the coach, we’d be stuck at 20 and we wouldn’t have what we have today. But I still love building. It’s just that the building is in a different form. We’re building this business, we’re building culture, we’re building, we’re building groups of clients, not just me, hands-on being with clients. And so the building and the problem solving doesn’t go away. It just changes form as you transition along your journey.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
I like it. I like it. Thanks for sharing that. Let’s do some key takeaways.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Let’s do it. I know I’ve got one key takeaway from me. You might have a couple, but for me, the number one is, is that most guys spend more time trying to be a better bloke to the boys than a manager of the boys.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, I totally agree. Yep.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
For you, what have you got one or two today?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
I’ve probably got a couple. I was just thinking about that one you said and how true it’s the one I had was the sooner you can eliminate the story in your head that you are taking the piss, the faster you’re going to grow into your new role and learn to embrace it and love it. And then I suppose my last one was, if you want to grow your business beyond one or two mates, then there’s just no way around this changing your identity and going from being a mate to managers. It’s a non-negotiable. It’s the price of admission, really.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, absolutely. Now, today, as we said at the start, there is no real action steps out of today. It’s just really understanding the four phases that we like. We alluded to at the start, the four phases of transitioning from a mate to a manager, which is accept, embrace, remove, and learn. They’re the four phases. And this is something that if you can just understand those different four phases and start grappling with these in your own mind, it’s starting to accept things, it’s starting to embrace it, it’s starting to remove it and starting to learn. If you can just start working through these different phases in your own mind, then you’re going to start working through shifting your identity. Now, this is where coaching comes in guys, and I’m going to be frank about this. This is the power of coaching like I was alluding to before.
(43:01):
It’s very hard to change your identity by reading books and listening to podcasts. The way that you change your identity is to be surrounded with like-minded people in an environment of growth and expansion. And you get coached through identifying your blind spots, but also seeing opportunities for growth and expansion and pushing your identity forward. And so one of the biggest things that I can recommend out of today is get a call booked in and let’s talk a bit about where you’re at in your journey. Let’s see how you being a mate to the boys on site is actually holding you back. And let’s talk through what are the skills that you’ve got to develop the soft skills and the strategies to be able to start becoming a manager of a trades business rather than a trader who happens to run a business. Get that call booked in today and really looking forward to talking to you soon so we can help you really take your business and life to the next level. Great episode today, Dan. I loved it.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, it was a lot of fun, a lot of fun and super important that guys get their head around this.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Good stuff. Thanks for listening today and looking forward to coming back to you next week with another Ripper episode here on The Trade Den. Thanks heaps.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Bye for now.