Episode 84 Podcast Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):

You can know what to do and why you need to get it done. But if your mindset is not conducive to moving in that direction, your mindset will hold you back every day of the week. Hi everyone. Rob Kropp and Dan Stones here from Pravar Group, and welcome back to another episode of The Trade Den. Good to have you back. Dan. How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:27):

Good to be back. Hi Rob. Hi everyone. Really pumped about this one today, getting stuck into fixed versus growth mindset. So what are we really talking about is something back in the eighties, a psychologist named Carol Dweck started studying something that would change how we think about success, failure and human potential. So decades ago she started this research and it all started when she noticed kids and that some would give up the moment a challenge happened whilst others would lean in and get excited about the difficulty and really wrestle with a problem, sink their teeth into it almost like a puzzle. Anyway, after decades of research, she discovered something really profound that in 2007 published her findings around the power of mindset. The book, which she mustn’t have spent that much time coming up with, the title was called Mindset, but it really was a game changer.

(01:17):

So I think as people get stuck into mindset these days, it comes from this work and I think we’ve sort of got to a point where it’s accepted that there is this thing called a growth mindset or a fixed mindset. What we want to do today though is really break this down for you in detail and probably go to another layer that you may not have heard before. So should be a really good conversation, Rob. It’s a real foundational one for anyone who’s looking to make improvements, make changes, and the approach they’re going to take to it really will dictate how far they go.

Speaker 1 (01:46):

It’s almost a foundational mindset conversation, isn’t it? Because there’s a lot of layers to mindset. There’s beliefs, there’s habits, there’s perceptions, there’s fear, there’s shame, there’s guilt, there’s identity, there’s values, there’s so much to mindset that we could talk about. But I think this whole fixed versus growth mindset, there’s almost a foundational layer. And if you can somewhat wrap your head around it and start shifting this different mindset, it’s going to open up your mind to be open to some or more of those bigger mindset conversations.

Speaker 2 (02:22):

And as we go through this, I think that idea that it’s such a big topic, it can feel like you’re almost listening to a different world. If you are foot firmly in one camp or the other, you’ll get to a point where it’s like, what the hell are you talking about? I could never relate to that. Or what are you talking about? I could never, I don’t know what you mean by that. And I think that’s a good indication that you’re probably starting to recognise the mindsets as we go. I think where we’ll start today is at that high level of what is a fixed versus a growth mindset at the higher level. And then we’ll break it down into something a little bit, probably more tangible that you can touch on and start to pull apart in your own world. Finishing off with our challenge, do you want to kick us off? I’m going to start by saying, well, let’s define fixed mindset. So what in your mind is a fixed mindset and how would you define that?

Speaker 1 (03:10):

A fixed mindset is that belief that your abilities, your intelligence, your talents are almost somewhat static in nature where it kind of means you’re kind of, you’ve either got ’em or you don’t, or you’re born with ’em or you don’t. So it’s almost like that mindset, your ability in terms of who you are, it’s fixed in nature. It’s almost like my feet are firmly planted on the ground and this is just who I am and this is what I was given and this is where I’m kind of going in life. So it’s a very somewhat a narrow and fixed view of your world that you’ve created around you, and you just believe that this is where you’re at in your moment in time.

Speaker 2 (03:52):

And it shows up in things like potential. For instance, you’ll have a sense of where you’re capping out or what’s the point of trying. Or when a challenge comes up, like we said about challenges at the top, you’ll avoid a challenge because it’s a sense that, well, it’ll just prove that I’m not good enough. If I’m not good enough, then there’s no point trying. And it’s sort of that loop that happens in a fixed mindset where everything’s capped off at the point of, well, what’s the point of any of it if I’ve either got it or I don’t? So it’s not worth doing anything else. If we look then at a growth mindset, give us your take or definition of a working definition of a growth mindset.

Speaker 1 (04:30):

So growth mindset is something where your mind is open to new ideas. Your intelligence, your ability, your skills, all those things can be developed, expanded on, grown, developed over a period of time. They’re not fixed in nature. You are where you are today because of where you’ve come from in the past, but where you’re going in the future is you’ve got the ability to change and evolve as a person because you open your mind to new ideas and new ways of doing things.

Speaker 2 (05:07):

And I think where someone with a growth mindset would view challenges as opportunities for growth, obviously the words sort of play on each other. Growth mindset means you see opportunities for growth. But more than that, I think anything that does happen, good, bad, indifferent is feedback versus what we call a verdict in terms of it’s not a confirmation that this is the way it was, this is the way it is and the way it will always be. It’s more of an idea that as a growth mindset, I’ve got feedback now on how I can correct, I’ve just got to stick with this programme a bit longer. I’m going to try something different. I’m going to work my way through it, which is a very different approach that you can take.

Speaker 1 (05:43):

And I think a few people get caught in that trap going, well, fixed is negative and growth is positive mindset. This isn’t about a negative or a positive mindset. And I think the other trap that other people that we see in coaching as well going, well, I’m in business, of course I’ve got a growth mindset. And that’s not true. Just because you’re in business doesn’t mean you’ve got a growth mindset. We’ve come across plenty of people in our time where they are firmly got their feet stuck on the ground and the rooted belief within themselves that this is how things are, this is who I am. I’m not changing for anyone. This is the way that I’ve always done it and this is how things need to get done. And so just because you’re in business and growing a business doesn’t mean you’ve got a growth mindset. It’s really important we tackle that early on, don’t we?

Speaker 2 (06:33):

Yeah, absolutely. There’s so many little nuances to this, and as we talk more about it, you’ll sort of start to understand how we peel it away. But you need to understand that the words themselves growth and fixed aren’t necessarily what you’d associate in other contexts. It’s not like growth of a business equals growth mindset or I dunno, I’m growing trees in my backyard, therefore I look to growth and I accept growth and it’s all positive. It’s not. That is what you’re saying. It’s a concept that shows you how you operate in life. It’s almost like the way you paint it, the filter that you see. It’s either something that can be worth with and expanded or it’s something that’s going to be fixed regardless, and you are just going through the motions to get to an end result given what you’ve got and making probably the best of an opportunity. And I see that as coming up with excuses. If someone’s making a lot of excuses, if you are making a lot of excuses in your world, chances are you’re trying to describe the fact that I’m not good enough. And based on the excuses that you’re giving, you’ve probably got a fixed mindset around whatever it is. So that’s the way we want to think about fixed and growth at a high level.

Speaker 1 (07:38):

Yeah, it’s your relationship to opportunity, it’s your relationship to failure, it’s your relationship to change, it’s your relationship to rejection, it’s a relationship within yourself. They’re the things that we’re talking about. And all those different elements are all rooted in this belief, whether it’s a fixed or a growth element to those things. And that’s what is a big part of this. Now, the other thing we want to talk about is that all at Pravar, we call them the four primary legacies, health, wealth, business and connections. And some people just use this broad generalist brush to be able to go, well, I’m just someone with a growth mindset and they just brush themselves with the growth brush. But the reality is that even across those four different legacies of health, wealth, business and connections, you might have a growth mindset in elements of your business. You might have a fixed mindset in elements of your business.

(08:35):

You might have a completely fixed mindset when it comes to your health elements of growth and fixed in your connections and elements of fixed and growth in terms of your wealth. And so you can’t just label yourself as growth or fixed. We’ve got to be able to look across all our different four primary legacies and start breaking down and starting to somewhat reflect on our own lives to be able to see, well, where are we growth and where are we fixed and how is those two different mindsets either enabling or holding us back from achieving the very things that we want achieve in life?

Speaker 2 (09:14):

Yeah, really well described. I think that the breakdown for me is in terms of people talk about I’ve got a mindset and it’s a single thing. It’s either one or the other. Now, in essence, that’s a fixed mindset. It’s not one or the other. It’s not black and white like that you just said. It’s mindsets, it’s plural depending on the context we find ourselves in. So what we’re going to do now is break down five key areas. Now you’ve said in terms of different areas of your life at a life level, the health wealth business and connections that we look at at Pravar, for example, everyone will have their own version of that, but they’re our four. But within those, how do we break this down so you can start to see where you’re operating from each one and understanding where precisely you can start to pull some levers and make those shifts, or at least become aware of where the mindsets that you have are differing and how you can achieve greater results by making sure that you’re working on the ones to get them across to that growth side.

(10:08):

So the five key areas, let’s start breaking these down and maybe Rob, give an example of a fixed and a growth in each sort of sense if we can. Let’s see if do that to provide the people listening with an example of either side of the coin, if you like. So the first area would be in skills or skill development when you’re trying to do something for the first time where you’re about to embark on, Hey, I’m going to take up this hobby, or whatever it is, that’s sort of a skills development thing, something you’re not sure about that you need to get better at.

Speaker 1 (10:34):

So let’s start with a fixed mindset for skills, and that would be, well, I was just born with this skill. You’ve either got it or you don’t. And so someone with a growth mindset might be that, well, I’ve developed this skill from practise, dedication, doing the reps and just putting in the hard work to develop this skill. Now the reality is I know I’m very skilled in business, I’m very skilled with numbers and I’m a great leader, but I was born as a baby who cried a lot and most babies do, but I’ve had to develop those skills and there’s no doubt that there’s some skills that I’ve got which are better than others in my world. We all have strengths and weaknesses, but the reality is the skills that I’ve got today is a reflection of the ones that I’ve worked on and developed over a period of time. There’s an example of someone with a growth mindset in those areas with when it comes to skills, but sometimes some people have that belief to be able to go, well, I’ve just got these skills just because that’s what I was born with. And they’re very close-minded around new skills or new skill development because they’re somewhat fixated thinking that new skills and life experiences can’t be developed over a period of time.

Speaker 2 (11:54):

Great, really good example. I think the other one, let’s talk about, like we said in different areas. Health would be another one where, hey, you’ve just got good genes or something like that. You’d explain it away really quickly as something out of your control. That means that it’s always going to be like that where as opposed to, Hey, I could get in and I can take responsibility for either my nutrition or my training or whatever it is that I’m looking at, and there’s something I can do that I can work on and practise that would give me a better result or help me improve. That’s another example.

Speaker 1 (12:23):

And to be aware of this around this skills topic across the health, wealth, business and connections, it’s being aware of the language that you use of, I’m not good at that. I can’t do that. I’ll never be good at that. But the reality is, of who we are in today and the skills that we’ve got in today’s life, the reality is you’ve developed them over a period of time. I look back and even in this podcast, I had that mindset before we started going, I’ll never be good at podcasting. There’s probably some people out there that think we still do suck, but whatever. That’s their fixed mindset on that issue. But we’ve developed the skill of podcasting over the last 80 odd episodes and we’ve grown and expanded and got better at it through putting in the reps. And there’s an example of just repetition, repetition and perfecting our craft. There’s example of two guys who have developed the skills through a growth mindset around it.

Speaker 2 (13:16):

Yeah, absolutely. Really good. So let’s say we’ve got skills in the bag there. So we put that one as an example. Let’s go. As you develop skills, as you show up to do anything in life, there’s going to be this thing called challenges. So where we can also see our mindsets showing up differently, fixed versus growth is in the area of challenge or when problems occur.

Speaker 1 (13:38):

Someone with a fixed mindset when it comes to challenges is they avoid them or they run away from them. There’s no, tomorrow they have a negative relationship with challenge. They see challenge as a bad thing. Someone with a growth mindset with challenge is they embrace it because they recognise that with every challenge comes an opportunity to get better. And they’re like, oh, you’ve got a challenge. Run at me. Come on, hurry up, let’s go. Let’s do it. And so the two different mindsets really helps you understand what relationship you have with challenge, whether you shy away from it or embrace it and look to grow from it.

Speaker 2 (14:18):

And it’s very hard to have, be persistent to have what we called in another episode, grit, to be able to work through problems that way and challenges. If you’ve got a fixed mindset, it’ll be very hard to get the results you want because you just don’t have that as part of your makeup. You are wired in a way that says, Hey, I’m not going to do this because I know I can’t right now. It’s not something I’m good at. I wasn’t born with that skill, so I’ll try and avoid it because I don’t want people to see that fault or that chink in my armour. They sort of try and keep a distance between the challenges themselves for fear of being inverted found out. I suppose.

Speaker 1 (14:53):

And this is why as we go through these five topics, we’ve already done two already around skills and challenges, but by the end of these five, you’ll start to notice and really have the realisation if you haven’t already, is that if your mindset, whether it’s fixed or growth, determines the results that you get in life. Because someone who believes that they don’t have the skills, they avoid challenges and they’re not willing to embrace that, they’re never going to achieve their full potential because they mope around. There’s no tomorrow. They’re making excuses, whinge and a bitching around all the problems that are going on in their world and that’s creating the results. And they might know what to do, but their mindset is holding them back. And that’s why we always say in coaching, that mindset always precedes strategy every day of the week. And if you haven’t had that realisation already on this topic, then you definitely will by the time we get to the fifth one.

Speaker 2 (15:47):

Yeah, absolutely. So let’s keep rolling through. The next one we’re going to talk about is effort. How much do you put into developing a skill or overcoming a challenge? The effort that you put in is another big one where we can pick up on the fixed versus growth mindset.

Speaker 1 (16:02):

Someone with a fixed mindset is it’s unnecessary. It’s like, oh, do I have to someone with a growth mindset is, yep, it’s an essential part of getting to mastery. And so you can see there it’s chalk and see cheese, someone with a fixed mindset they don’t want to put in, want to put the minimal amount of effort into get to what they have to do, whereas someone who achieves amazing things in life or in business or both is they recognise that just doing the work is part of the process.

Speaker 2 (16:31):

Yeah, absolutely. This shows up in sport a lot, I think where you’ve got elite athletes. If you spend any time around an elite athlete, you get to witness them putting in the work and the effort, and I don’t know, an elite athlete that hasn’t got a growth mindset that there’s none of them that are at that elite level that goes, Hey, I was just born with this amazing talent and good for me, I lucky they work their asses off, not just to get to the top, but to stay there. So I think its a way to think about it that they’re not resting on their laurels. Yes, they might have some advantages or yes, they might have had some skills or some things in their bag, but at that top, best of the best level, we talk about world-class type people. It always comes down to effort. And if you’re not willing to put that in or if you’ve got a fixed mindset around it, then you’ll give up every day of the week. You’ll just say, Hey, I’m not good enough, I’m out. Or if you’ve got that growth mindset, Hey, this is just part of the journey. If I’m going to really stay at the top of my game, I’ve got to do the work. I’ve got a growth mindset. It’s essential.

Speaker 1 (17:28):

Yep. It’s in their DNA.

Speaker 2 (17:30):

Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent it is. Now let’s go onto the fourth. I love this one because this is a big one. I think where people can be found out in terms of their fixed mindset. You could say yes to all of these, I’m growth, I’m growth, I’m growth. When we get to this one, we’ll really start to put the asset on, and that is feedback. When you get feedback or you get criticism or you get results, whatever it might be that you use as a form of feedback, we can probably tell automatically. I know we can do it in coaching all the time, but when we give feedback and we’re coaching someone, we get a really good gauge. But our coaching is almost feedback as a feedback loop. But what about for you in terms of feedback and the fixed and growth mindsets that show up there?

Speaker 1 (18:14):

Someone with a fixed mindset when it comes to feedback is they get defensive and they take it personally and they hate it. They hate the feedback, they think it’s criticism of them and who they are, and it’s almost like they’ve got a shield up and they’re very guarded and they just don’t like hearing it. Whereas someone who is sorry, they feel like they’re, and I also want to add in there, they feel like they’re getting attacked. That’s probably another part as well, someone with a growth mindset is they love it, they lean into it. They’re like, give me as much feedback as I can. I want to hear it. I want to get better. Talk to me around where the chinks of my armour are. I want to know what we’re doing well, but what we’re not doing well and what we can we improve and how can we get better? And that feedback’s a big part of it where if not all feedback’s great, but they’re open and receptive to it because they know that the feedback is going to help them get to the next layer and level to whatever that is in their world.

Speaker 2 (19:15):

It really is. This is the gift you get along the journey with the challenges and everything like that. Feedback are the little nuggets you pick up along the way, but you’ve got to be willing to pick them up. You’ve got to be accepting of those as they go. I think I remember probably as a kid and as a teen growing up and playing sport and all that sort of stuff, this was a big one for me when I started doing mindset work many, many years ago. This for me was huge. Being able to get to the point where it was feedback and just not a personal attack was a massive step forward. But until I did that, every part of feedback was I never got the gold out of the advice I was given or the content that was being provided to me as feedback because I never took it as feedback. I’d take it as a personal attack or hey, that means I’m not good enough, which was just another reason why I couldn’t do what I thought I could do and all of those sort of things. So feedback is a massive opportunity for you to unlock the power of mindset I think.

Speaker 1 (20:10):

It is, and I’m glad we spoke around it at the start around how it’s not, you don’t just have a feat, a growth mindset and feedback. That was a great example where in that area of your world, you’ve got a growth mindset in there. I know in my life, I hate getting feedback in some areas because I won’t say what, but in certain areas of my world, I feel like when I get feedback, I’m like, oh, I’m just getting attacked, or I feel like I’m getting criticised predominantly. I love feedback. I always say to Chris all the time, our podcast producer, it’s like, Chris, give us feedback. We want to hear it. We want to get better. I love getting feedback from you. I love getting feedback from people around me around how I can be a better leader. And so in the business world, I feel like I’ve got a growth mindset, but there’s other areas of my life where I probably struggle and feel like I’m getting criticised. So that’s why it’s so important that we don’t just label ourselves as, yep, I’ve got a growth mindset. We’ve got really chunk it down into the different areas of our lives and really somewhat psychoanalyse to be able to go, well, where do I have a fixed mindset when it comes to feedback and what can I do to unlock that and move that into the growth sector?

Speaker 2 (21:20):

I think it’s important when we talk about feedback as well, that we recognise that it doesn’t always feel good just because we had a growth mindset. It’s not this sort of world where it’s all rainbows and unicorns and our favourite music playing. It’s not like a happy place in that sense. Feedback can still hurt, it can still sting, but we’ve got to recognise it for what it is, which is feedback, which is a positive outcome if we choose to take it that way. We don’t have to shut everything off and go, well, I feel bad because I’m getting feedback, therefore I’m not going to take it on board, therefore, I’m going to let that opportunity get better go. I think it’s really important that people take that out as well. What about our last one? Now this is if it was a perfect world, everything would just keep getting better and better and better, and we’d just be loving the growth mindset. Everyone would adopt it. But there’s this thing called setbacks. There are things when we’re going to get derailed, stuff comes in sideways, stuff we can’t control. And again, I think this is another one where we get revealed in terms of what another level of our mindset or another depth of our mindset is.

Speaker 1 (22:20):

The reality is that we’ve chosen this path in business and there’s going to be challenges and there’s going to be setbacks, as you said. And so with someone with a fixed mindset when it comes to setbacks is they get discouraged. They blame external factors. It’s elbow’s fault, it’s the market’s fault, it’s the economy’s fault, it’s interest rates. It can’t find good people. It’s my team’s fault. Whenever something bad goes wrong, they’re so quick to blame others around why that problem exists. And they don’t take personal responsibility yet. Someone with a growth mindset is they go, okay, well, I’ve had a bit of a setback. Thanks for the feedback, appreciate it. Let’s face the facts and what can I learn about from it? What can I do differently? And so you can see there immediately it’s chalk and cheese in terms of how someone approaches it. The fixed mindset blames others and justifies their position on that setback. The other person has the setback and goes, okay, well that sucked, but what am I going to do about it? And you can see why winners keep winning, because winners have growth mindsets and they just keep evolving over a period of time, and that’s why setbacks is important to analyse in your world across health, wealth, business, and connections. It’s about realising that how do you approach the situation when you’ve had a setback in across those areas?

Speaker 2 (23:38):

Yeah, I love it. I think you touched on this in the intro as well. You mentioned that word when you’re asking one of the questions. Yet, I think in coaching, I use this all the time. When we’re starting to have these conversations with clients, there’s two words I think that are synonymous with a growth mindset. One is yet, and the other one is until, and I think if you can add those words as a, I haven’t done this yet, or I’m going to do this until I think that sets you up to sort of start practising  a growth mindset and starting to turn that conversation around from just it’s a dead end. Oh, well, what a waste of time. And geez, it would’ve been different if it wasn’t someone else’s fault. That blaming of others and being discouraged to the point that you give up.

Speaker 1 (24:16):

The reason why I love this topic so much and why it’s so foundational is hopefully by listening today, you’ve realised that your mindset determines the results that you get in business and life and mindset precedes strategy every day. You can know what to do and why you need to get it done, but if your mindset is not conducive to moving in that direction, your mindset will hold you back every day of the week. When I was doing endurance cycling, my mantra of what used to be my body doesn’t go where, my mind doesn’t push it. That was my mantra. And same thing in business and life is my mind is the leading domino. It’s the leading domino to every great success in any chosen field, whether it’s politics, business, entrepreneurship, sports, or whatever it is, your mind is your greatest asset if you move it in the right direction.

(25:16):

So our challenge for you today is your ability to be able to be consciously aware of the thoughts and the conversation you’re having with yourself when you’re faced with those five different scenarios that we’ve been through today, and catch yourself in that moment to be able to go, am I approaching this situation with a fixed or a growth mindset? And what you will notice is there’ll be patterns start to appear in your world, but the more you can reflect on it and be aware of your language and your thought pattern and the behaviours that you demonstrate, you’ll have the ability to double down on the growth, but identify the fixed mindset you’ve got in certain areas and start to shift that across into the growth area and what’s your business and life change for good.

Speaker 2 (26:10):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think just to put that final point on it as well, we talked about it, but it’s not just about positive thinking. So if you’re listening to this thing, well, I’ve just got to get a better attitude. You’ve probably missed the point. There’s real work to be done here, and there’s things that you can fundamentally change about how your brain is wired in those areas, the five that we outlined, and if you do that, you could almost guarantee that you’re going to get different results.

Speaker 1 (26:34):

In the end of the day, it’s about building a business and life that just gets better and better and better every single day. If you’re in that position where you know that you do want to achieve better results in business and life, then jump across to strategysession.com.au. Fill out the form book in a time that suits you, and let’s have a conversation around where you’re at, where you’re trying to grow, and what we can work on with you around your mindset and your strategies to be able to help you achieve what’s possible in your business and life. That’s it for another episode here on The Trade Den. Thanks for joining us today. Take care. We’ll see you on the next one.